Cont: The Biden Presidency (3)

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Delvo said:
He does seem to have been less conservative so far than his prior track record or his occasional hostility to progressives would have indicated ahead of time, and less conservative than other Presidents at least since 1980. But that's really just another way of saying the only other two Democrats in that time were more conservative. He's the tallest kid in kindergarten at a school for dwarves.
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well yeah, the rightward gallop of the party is hard to overstate. People like LBJ seems like outright Stalinists compared to party leadership today.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Because command economies have worked out so well in the past. :p
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That is because the right people have not tried it yet...:D

When it comes to blind , "if the facts calsh with ideology, facts must be disposed of" dogamatism, religion has nothing on political/economic ideologies.
 
Some people seem to have hard time dealing with the reality that their political opinions are considered extreme by most voters.
 
And I see the Dems now have to deal with their own version of the Tea Party...Down with all moderates anc centrists! Ideological purity above all!
 
how much responsibility do the moderates and centrists have for the current state of affairs? seems like they've kind of called the shots for a long time and things aren't so great
 
dudalb said:
And I see the Dems now have to deal with their own version of the Tea Party...Down with all moderates anc centrists! Ideological purity above all!
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Why do you say this stuff Dud? There is nothing new about a far left. Just as a far right is hardly a surprise. But the far left has never had anything close to the influence of the Tea Party or MAGA Republicans. And they still don't.

In contrast, the far right nutjobs have seized control of the GOP.
 
dirtywick said:
how much responsibility do the moderates and centrists have for the current state of affairs? seems like they've kind of called the shots for a long time and things aren't so great
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What "shots" can be called against an opposition sufficiently large to block most initiatives except one major reconciliation bill a session and whatever they can squeeze out of bad faith compromises?

I'm actually kind of amazed anything meaningful has gotten done at all.
 
gnome said:
What "shots" can be called against an opposition sufficiently large to block most initiatives except one major reconciliation bill a session and whatever they can squeeze out of bad faith compromises?

I'm actually kind of amazed anything meaningful has gotten done at all.
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all i'm saying is after a few decades of lowering taxes and stripping regulations you'd think you'd see some of these moderate/centrist market based solutions. all i see is unsustainable housing, healthcare, and education costs, a looming climate crisis, and the disappearance of the single income household. and it's not blacks on welfare and gays behind it all.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I tend to agree actually. He's been considerably more canny than other centrists within the party and has been throwing more than few bones to the populist sentiment that obviously exists in this country, including within the Democratic party, as opposed to digging his heels in like some other centrists. He's certainly not like the HRC dead-enders who seem to take every rebuke from the progressive wing as an excuse to double down on their center-right attitudes.

Up until he screwed over the rail workers union he'd probably had been the most pro-union president in living memory, and even with that black mark on the record his administration is a significant departure from the liberal anti-union status quo.

The removal of Ron Klain as Chief of Staff to be replaced by Jeff Zients is not a great sign that Biden's more progressive approach to governing will continue.

https://newrepublic.com/article/170478/progressives-ron-klain-line-white-house-jeff-zients
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Tell me exactly what the rail unions didn't eventually get...with Biden's help...that they were asking for. Biden signed the non-strike order in Dec. 2022 and the RR unions reach an agreement giving them paid sick leave 6 months later...with the Biden Admin's help. How is his evading a strike that would have debilitated the country a bad thing? Seems to me it was a win-win situation.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
well yeah, the rightward gallop of the party is hard to overstate. People like LBJ seems like outright Stalinists compared to party leadership today.
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You make a lot of claims like this. So please give me some examples of how the current Dem party leadership hasnot supported the same things the LBJ administration did: The Clean Air Act, Civil Right Acts, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Immigration, Education.

If they make people like LBJ seem like 'outright Stalinists' then there must be plenty of examples you can give. So, let's see them.
 
dirtywick said:
all i'm saying is after a few decades of lowering taxes and stripping regulations you'd think you'd see some of these moderate/centrist market based solutions. all i see is unsustainable housing, healthcare, and education costs, a looming climate crisis, and the disappearance of the single income household. and it's not blacks on welfare and gays behind it all.
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Ahem...lowering taxes for the rich and stripping regulations are classic GOP, not moderate Dem, policies.
 
Stacyhs said:
Ahem...lowering taxes for the rich and stripping regulations are classic GOP, not moderate Dem, policies.
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lowering corporate tax rates and stripping regulations are pro free market positions. social liberal, fiscal conservative is a classic moderate dem.

regardless, when placing blame for our current problems on the political extremes, you can't really point to progressives and leftists as being a part of the problem and then also say almost universally that all the problems we have is because policy hasn't been leftist enough.
 
dirtywick said:
lowering corporate tax rates and stripping regulations are pro free market positions. social liberal, fiscal conservative is a classic moderate dem.
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Are you claiming that moderate Dems are pro stripping all government regulations? You make no exceptions in your claim.

Moderate Dems are socially liberal and center-right...not far right...fiscally conservative. Center-right does not mean being anti-regulation but more conservative with what regulations are needed.

Not a single Democrat, including Manchin, voted for Trump's corporate tax cuts.
 
Stacyhs said:
Are you claiming that moderate Dems are pro stripping all government regulations? You make no exceptions in your claim.

Moderate Dems are socially liberal and center-right...not far right...fiscally conservative. Center-right does not mean being anti-regulation but more conservative with what regulations are needed.

Not a single Democrat, including Manchin, voted for Trump's corporate tax cuts.
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deregulation and corporate tax cuts have been steady for decades. this goes beyond trump's tax cuts. certainly some of those stripped along the way were ok with the moderates.

again, you can't put all these economic problems that resulted from economic and regulatory theories that are too far to the right, and more reflective of moderate dem preferences, on progressives
 
dirtywick said:
deregulation and corporate tax cuts have been steady for decades. this goes beyond trump's tax cuts.
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And who has done the deregulating and lowered the corporate tax cuts? Republicans, overwhelmingly.

certainly some of those stripped along the way were ok with the moderates.
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Certainly. But 'some' is not what you said. As I said, moderate Dems are more conservative with WHAT regulations they don't support. They are not anti-regulations.

again, you can't put all these economic problems that resulted from economic and regulatory theories that are too far to the right, and more reflective of moderate dem preferences, on progressives
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I haven't. And your sweeping claims that moderate Democrats are anti-government regulations and pro-lowering corporate taxes is not supported by evidence.
 
Stacyhs said:
And who has done the deregulating and lowered the corporate tax cuts? Republicans, overwhelmingly.



Certainly. But 'some' is not what you said. As I said, moderate Dems are more conservative with WHAT regulations they don't support. They are not anti-regulations.



I haven't. And your sweeping claims that moderate Democrats are anti-government regulations and pro-lowering corporate taxes is not supported by evidence.
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no, that's not even close to what i said. i wrote like a sentence and have hardly made any sweeping claims, in fact they've been pretty generic. yeah, they're not completely anti regulation which is neither what i said or what you thought i meant, just kind of. fine.

what i said was free market solutions have pretty much failed to address the major issues we're facing now, and the moderate dems that favor free market solutions have failed to provide anymore solutions than anyone else. blame the republicans if you want, they're certainly primarily responsible and have all but given up on even having any policy ideas.

but what you can't do is blame progressives, the extreme left has had almost impact on policy at all. the moderates have run the party for decades
 
dirtywick said:
no, that's not even close to what i said. i wrote like a sentence and have hardly made any sweeping claims, in fact they've been pretty generic. yeah, they're not completely anti regulation which is neither what i said or what you thought i meant, just kind of. fine.
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So you didn't write : "lowering corporate tax rates and stripping regulations are pro free market positions. social liberal, fiscal conservative is a classic moderate dem."?

Hmmm. Maybe that's not what you meant but I don't see any other way for me to interpret what you did write.

Since you immediately followed the first sentence with the second, I can't see how you weren't tying "a classic moderate dem" to supporting '"lowering corporate tax rates and stripping regulations," and the free market position.

what i said was free market solutions have pretty much failed to address the major issues we're facing now, and the moderate dems that favor free market solutions have failed to provide anymore solutions than anyone else. blame the republicans if you want, they're certainly primarily responsible and have all but given up on even having any policy ideas.
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Now I'm even more confused. So you ARE saying moderate Dems are pro "lowering corporate tax rates and stripping regulations"?

but what you can't do is blame progressives, the extreme left has had almost impact on policy at all. the moderates have run the party for decades
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I agree; I don't blame the progressives. But I also don't blame moderate Dems. I blame the GOP for most of it..
 
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