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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII

Hunt had a long career at CIA, wrote a few spy novels along the way.

Sturgis was kind of a badass. Lot's black ops on his resume'.

Neither were involved in the assassination. Hunt is on record for opposing JFK's expansion of the CIA's reach well outside if the charter. He didn't like the CIA reaching out to journalists to help spread their world-view, something that began under Kennedy,
 
Axxman300 said:
Frank Sturgis and E. Howard Hunt.
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Yup.

We've even someone claim to have been the "second gunman on the Grassy Knoll", a particularly stupid man called James Files

Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy) reckons that Files is the "Rodney Dangerfield of Kennedy assassins". :D
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Axxman300 said:
Hunt had a long career at CIA, wrote a few spy novels along the way.

Sturgis was kind of a badass. Lot's black ops on his resume'.

Neither were involved in the assassination. Hunt is on record for opposing JFK's expansion of the CIA's reach well outside if the charter. He didn't like the CIA reaching out to journalists to help spread their world-view, something that began under Kennedy,
Click to expand...

While on the subject of Hunt and Sturgis, and JFK assassination CTs, have you heard of the related Watergate CTs ( ie. “Nixon was framed by the CIA”)? I say related because there’s more overlap between the promoters and believers of the two than you might think.

Of course, there are people who believe the CIA/“Deep State” is behind every major historical/political event. It’s arguably worse than ever now, with the Internet and social media, and things like QAnon.
 
Allen773 said:
While on the subject of Hunt and Sturgis, and JFK assassination CTs, have you heard of the related Watergate CTs ( ie. “Nixon was framed by the CIA”)? I say related because there’s more overlap between the promoters and believers of the two than you might think.

Of course, there are people who believe the CIA/“Deep State” is behind every major historical/political event. It’s arguably worse than ever now, with the Internet and social media, and things like QAnon.
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The short answer is Nixon shot himself in the foot. Due to his paranoia, he self-destructed (seriously, nobody was voting for McGovern, and everyone except a few in the DNC and Nixon knew this).

Throw in G. Gordon Liddy and what you get is Watergate. In fact, thanks to Liddy, the idea of a vast government conspiracy behind anything becomes a black comedy because most real operations have been run by men like Liddy. He is the mirror image of the conspiracy theorist. He takes a simple problem and applied a convoluted solution to solve it. And then got caught, and everything lead back to the White House.

As for the CIA, Vietnam, Cambodia, Argentina, and Iran had a handicapping affect on the agency across the board. Throw in the fact that times and technologies were changing, and nobody seemed to know which way to go in 1971-72, and it's had to see the CIA being behind anything.
 
And here we go...

Former Secret Service Agent "breaks his silence":

https://dnyuz.com/2023/09/09/j-f-k-...-breaks-his-silence-and-raises-new-questions/

Skip to the good part:

What it comes down to is a copper-jacketed 6.5-millimeter projectile. The Warren Commission decided that one of the bullets fired that day struck the president from behind, exited from the front of his throat and continued on to hit Mr. Connally, somehow managing to injure his back, chest, wrist and thigh. It seemed incredible that a single bullet could do all that, so skeptics called it the magic bullet theory.

Investigators came to that conclusion partly because the bullet was found on a stretcher believed to have held Mr. Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital, so they assumed it had exited his body during efforts to save his life. But Mr. Landis, who was never interviewed by the Warren Commission, said that is not what happened.

In fact, he said, he was the one who found the bullet — and he found it not in the hospital near Mr. Connally but in the presidential limousine lodged in the back of the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting.

When he spotted the bullet after the motorcade arrived at the hospital, he said he grabbed it to thwart souvenir hunters. Then, for reasons that still seem fuzzy even to him, he said he entered the hospital and placed it next to Kennedy on the president’s stretcher, assuming it could somehow help doctors figure out what happened. At some point, he now guesses, the stretchers must have been pushed together and the bullet was shaken from one to another.

“There was nobody there to secure the scene, and that was a big, big bother to me,” Mr. Landis said. “All the agents that were there were focused on the president.” A crowd was gathering. “This was all going on so quickly. And I was just afraid that — it was a piece of evidence, that I realized right away. Very important. And I didn’t want it to disappear or get lost. So it was, ‘Paul, you’ve got to make a decision,’ and I grabbed it.’”

Mr. Landis theorizes that the bullet struck Kennedy in the back but for some reason was undercharged and did not penetrate deeply, therefore popping back out before the president’s body was removed from the limousine.

Mr. Landis has been reluctant to speculate on the larger implications. He always believed that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman.
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Here's the important part:

Mr. Landis’s account varies in a couple of respects from two written statements he filed in the week after the shooting. Aside from not mentioning finding the bullet, he reported hearing only two shots. “I do not recall hearing a third shot,” he wrote. Likewise, he did not mention going into the trauma room where Kennedy was taken, writing that he “remained outside by the door” when the first lady went in.
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My dime-store evaluation? This is what untreated PTSD looks like. Those interested in the JFK administration and that part of US history should read:
The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence. These guys drank like fish before the assassination, and it got much worse afterword, as this was a time when men didn't discuss their feeling because they weren't allowed to have feelings.

He didn't report finding the bullet to anyone on the day of the assassination, or in his official statements at the time - when it should be fresh in his memory. I feel for the guy, but he's been manipulated to sell books.

Watch for the usual circus that this story will generate.
 
Axxman300 said:
And here we go...

Former Secret Service Agent "breaks his silence":

https://dnyuz.com/2023/09/09/j-f-k-...-breaks-his-silence-and-raises-new-questions/

Skip to the good part:



Here's the important part:



My dime-store evaluation? This is what untreated PTSD looks like. Those interested in the JFK administration and that part of US history should read:
The Kennedy Detail: JFK's Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence. These guys drank like fish before the assassination, and it got much worse afterword, as this was a time when men didn't discuss their feeling because they weren't allowed to have feelings.

He didn't report finding the bullet to anyone on the day of the assassination, or in his official statements at the time - when it should be fresh in his memory. I feel for the guy, but he's been manipulated to sell books.

Watch for the usual circus that this story will generate.
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This a good example of memory loss over time. The description given: "In fact, he said, he was the one who found the bullet — and he found it not in the hospital near Mr. Connally but in the presidential limousine lodged in the back of the seat behind where Kennedy was sitting."
Doesn't make sense geometrically. There was no seat behind where the President was riding, as he was in the rear seat. Further given the description of Connally's wounds, the bullet if lodged in a seat would logically be lodged in the seat upon which Connally was sitting, which is in front of where the President was seated.
So, yea this will be a circus also.
 
Yeah, you see similar stuff re: the chaos, confusion, shock, horror, lasting trauma, and loss or distortion of memory over time (in some cases, helped along by interviews with conspiracy theorists) with eyewitnesses to RFK’s assassination. And all of this has been further colored by these being seminal historical events/memories—again, with decades of conspiracy theorists muddying the waters.

Frustrating, to say the least.
 
Found this on Quora: I don't recall the 'Rose' story below and some other rare - well to me - mentions of sideline characters

Those who believe the WCR believe that Oswald was a lone nut who fate put in the perfect place to kill JFK and that when he saw the parade route in the paper decided he would make himself famous. If that were true no one but Oswald would have been aware JFK would be in danger that day, (With the possible exception of anyone he told about his plans)

First you have Joseph Milteer. An FBI informant taped a conversation with Milteer who said in that tape that JFK was going to be assassinated, shot from a tall building with a patsy arrested quickly and blamed for the shooting. There is a photo that looks remarkably like Milteer in Dealy Plaza. Some claim it isn’t him but his features are unique enough I don’t rule out it being Milteer.

Next you have Rose Cherami. Rose Cheramie was found unconsciousness by the side of the road at Eunice, Louisiana, on 20th November, 1963. Lieutenant Francis Frugé of the Louisiana State Police took her to the state hospital. On the journey Cheramie said that she had been thrown out of a car by two gangsters who worked for Jack Ruby. She claimed that the men were involved in a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. Cheramie added that Kennedy would be killed in Dallas within a few days. Later she told the same story to doctors and nurses who treated her. As she appeared to be under the influence of drugs her story was ignored. Only after JFK was assassinated did they take her story seriously.

Another interesting story is Eugene Dirkin. He was an Army cryptographer assigned to monitor transmissions. and had the army’s highest crypto clearance. He intercepted communications between Bill Harvey and/or Guy Bannister and members of the the French Guerini Mob including people like Lucien Sarti, and Jean Soutre arranging the assassination of JFK for Dallas and in November. He tried to alert top officials and even wrote a letter to Bobby Kennedy warning him of the danger to JFK in Dallas. Dirkin’s life was ruined by his attempts to save JFK.

Richard Nagell is another interesting story. He went into a bank and shot his gun up into the ceiling. He claimed he didn’t want to rob the bank, that he wanted to be arrested so he would be in Jail when JFK was assassinated since some behind the assassination wanted to use him as a Patsy and he wanted to protect himself by having a rock solid alibi.

There are more such as Madeleine Duncan Brown who accompanied LBJ to a party on 11/21/63 and was told by LBJ "After tomorrow, those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's no threat. That's a promise."

Brown said that on New Year's Eve 1963, she met with Lyndon Johnson at the Driskill Hotel in Austin, Texas, and that Johnson confirmed the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, insisting that "Texas oil and ... renegade intelligence bastards in Washington" had been responsible. Brown alleged that Johnson did not attempt to stop the assassination because he hated Kennedy and had an intense desire to be President. Brown also said that she witnessed Oswald meeting with Ruby in the Carousel Club prior to the assassination, but did not specify how long before the assassination this meeting had occurred.

Brown as she looked when she had the affair with Lyndon above. Below a more recent look

There are others who seemed to have know in advance. Even Jack Ruby invited a friend to view the motorcade from a vantage point across from the TSBD and his words were “Come watch the fireworks” https://qr.ae/pKtRyJ
 
Hans said:
Found this on Quora: I don't recall the 'Rose' story below and some other rare - well to me - mentions of sideline characters

Those who believe the WCR believe that Oswald was a lone nut who fate put in the perfect place to kill JFK and that when he saw the parade route in the paper decided he would make himself famous. If that were true no one but Oswald would have been aware JFK would be in danger that day, (With the possible exception of anyone he told about his plans)

First you have Joseph Milteer. An FBI informant taped a conversation with Milteer who said in that tape that JFK was going to be assassinated, shot from a tall building with a patsy arrested quickly and blamed for the shooting. There is a photo that looks remarkably like Milteer in Dealy Plaza. Some claim it isn’t him but his features are unique enough I don’t rule out it being Milteer.

Next you have Rose Cherami. Rose Cheramie was found unconsciousness by the side of the road at Eunice, Louisiana, on 20th November, 1963. Lieutenant Francis Frugé of the Louisiana State Police took her to the state hospital. On the journey Cheramie said that she had been thrown out of a car by two gangsters who worked for Jack Ruby. She claimed that the men were involved in a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. Cheramie added that Kennedy would be killed in Dallas within a few days. Later she told the same story to doctors and nurses who treated her. As she appeared to be under the influence of drugs her story was ignored. Only after JFK was assassinated did they take her story seriously.

Another interesting story is Eugene Dirkin. He was an Army cryptographer assigned to monitor transmissions. and had the army’s highest crypto clearance. He intercepted communications between Bill Harvey and/or Guy Bannister and members of the the French Guerini Mob including people like Lucien Sarti, and Jean Soutre arranging the assassination of JFK for Dallas and in November. He tried to alert top officials and even wrote a letter to Bobby Kennedy warning him of the danger to JFK in Dallas. Dirkin’s life was ruined by his attempts to save JFK.

Richard Nagell is another interesting story. He went into a bank and shot his gun up into the ceiling. He claimed he didn’t want to rob the bank, that he wanted to be arrested so he would be in Jail when JFK was assassinated since some behind the assassination wanted to use him as a Patsy and he wanted to protect himself by having a rock solid alibi.

There are more such as Madeleine Duncan Brown who accompanied LBJ to a party on 11/21/63 and was told by LBJ "After tomorrow, those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's no threat. That's a promise."

Brown said that on New Year's Eve 1963, she met with Lyndon Johnson at the Driskill Hotel in Austin, Texas, and that Johnson confirmed the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, insisting that "Texas oil and ... renegade intelligence bastards in Washington" had been responsible. Brown alleged that Johnson did not attempt to stop the assassination because he hated Kennedy and had an intense desire to be President. Brown also said that she witnessed Oswald meeting with Ruby in the Carousel Club prior to the assassination, but did not specify how long before the assassination this meeting had occurred.

Brown as she looked when she had the affair with Lyndon above. Below a more recent look

There are others who seemed to have know in advance. Even Jack Ruby invited a friend to view the motorcade from a vantage point across from the TSBD and his words were “Come watch the fireworks” https://qr.ae/pKtRyJ
Click to expand...

Everything here was a lie. Debunked decades ago. Jack Ruby was at the Dallas newspaper office at the time of the assassination.

Oswald never went to the Carousel Club, even for fun (Oswald didn't have fun).

Richard Nagell allegedly shot up the bank in September, and was one of Jim Garrison's trained monkeys. Read an official document about him here:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10123-10029.pdf

Eugene Dirkin didn't intercept a cable. He told the FBI he "divined" it from reading Stars & Stripes, and found an anti-Kennedy subtext/bias leading him to think a conspiracy was afoot. On other words, a nutjob.

I can do this for the entire list, but you get the idea.
 
If someone—or a group of people, the Mob, a foreign government, a rogue part of the US government, whomever—wanted to find someone to kill JFK, why not send an attractive young woman assassin? It’s JFK!! If you want to talk about the opportunity part of “means, motive, and opportunity…”

Regardless, Oswald and Ruby are just about the last people in the world any real conspirators would use to kill the President of the United States, unless the conspirators wanted to be arrested themselves. 60 years later, and still no credible evidence of any conspiracy.
 
Along those lines, as people have pointed out in previous iterations of this thread, why bother to assassinate JFK at all? Why not just get some compromising photos and force him to resign in disgrace?
 
SpitfireIX said:
Along those lines, as people have pointed out in previous iterations of this thread, why bother to assassinate JFK at all? Why not just get some compromising photos and force him to resign in disgrace?
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Because, if there were a conspiracy (there wasn't), it would be possible to set up the murder to make Kennedy a martyr in a way advantageous to the murderers.
 
Here's a CIA cable to numerous Agency stations and bases around the world dated July 19, 1968 (read: less than two months after RFK's assassination, which had immediately created renewed interest in JFK conspiracy theories, as noted in the cable). It mentions an article in The New Yorker by Edward Jay Epstein about Jim Garrison's investigation into the JFK assassination in New Orleans, and also contains advice for CIA personnel stationed overseas how to deal with local accusations in their respective postings alleging CIA and FBI involvement in the assassination.

What I find fascinating about this is that not only is the cable author advising CIA officers overseas to use the New Yorker article to brief "interested contacts, especially government and political leaders" regarding the assassination conspiracy theories and to "demonstrate to assets...that there is no hard evidence of any such conspiracy"; but also, the recommendation that CIA officers have their assets brief the aforementioned "interested contacts" about the structure of the US judicial system, including "the separation between federal and state courts and the fact that judges and district attorneys in the states are usually elected, not appointed" and a result, DA Garrison is only accountable to voters and thus can continue his investigation.

The other interesting thing is that the cable concludes with the directive that "any personal attacks* upon Garrison (or any other public official) must be strictly avoided." Good on the CIA for including that---not that it was EVER reciprocated by Garrison and other conspiracy theorists, obviously! :rolleyes:

*underlining in the original cable.

Overall though, fascinating stuff. :thumbsup:

Read the cable here: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2023/104-10012-10076.pdf
 
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No, Mr. President, the elevator is out of order. We can take the very steep, concrete-floor staircase with the simple handrail, the stairs a little wet from being freshly mopped.

Oops.
 
JayUtah said:
It's kind of a standard two-step.

"How did NASA fake all the moonwalking and other evidence so convincingly?"
"They're NASA; they're really smart and they can do anything."
"Except, apparently, figure out how to actually send people to the Moon."
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My all time favorite is the theory that NASA killed the Apollo 1 crew to keep Grissom from going public about his safety concerns regarding the Block 1 Command Module, and they accomplished this by making it look like an accident caused by a safety issue with the Block 1 Command Module.
 
I recently discovered historian Sean Munger's YouTube channel, and I've been enjoying his videos. He has a two part deep dive on the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. Part 1 is 1 hour 44 minutes, and Part 2 is 1 hour 49 minutes, but they're well worth watching, and they're divided into chapters that make it easier to watch them in sections.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DC8tO16xdrY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptt1ti63IiE
 
Foster Zygote said:
I recently discovered historian Sean Munger's YouTube channel, and I've been enjoying his videos. He has a two part deep dive on the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. Part 1 is 1 hour 44 minutes, and Part 2 is 1 hour 49 minutes, but they're well worth watching, and they're divided into chapters that make it easier to watch them in sections.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DC8tO16xdrY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptt1ti63IiE
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Yes, he does excellent work with these.
 
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