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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

tyr_13 said:
'Pronouns should be based on what I think your gender is' isn't actually any less tied to your objection.
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I often use pronouns to refer to people without any idea of their gender identity, e.g. "Wow, that guy shouldn't be driving his diesel truck here inside the maintenance hangar," or "Damn that lady looks fit in her sundress." I'm just assigning pronouns based on apparent sex, without hardly thinking about it. You say these pronouns may be incorrect but I'd say they are doing what they are supposed to do, even if the cowboy in the truck sees herself as a cowgirl and the lady in the sundress sees themself as non-binary.

Sent from my Pronoun Decanter using Tapatalk
 
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arthwollipot said:
I think you're actually asking whether someone is justified in using physical violence in "self-defense" against mental, emotional or social violence, which is crossing over categories. Would this be a correct interpretation of your question?
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What is this category crossing you speak of?

Psychological abuse , verbal assault, verbal harassment, bullying, coercion, verbal aggression, vulgarity, ridicule....we already have many words to describe these things that are intended to harm another person (legal or not, it depends).
You can add in modifiers like 'severe'.

Violence is the word that does not belong with this category (IMO)- unless it is an adjective to describe speech that contains violent threats, or incitement to violence, etc...

I think adding in the word violent is a type of psychological coercion itself - meant to demand compliance by making it sound like you really have punched them hard in the face.
 
theprestige said:
No. I want how I perceive something to have primacy over how others want me to perceive it.
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Why? What makes you so special?

theprestige said:
I don't want to be told I'm committing a hate crime if I perceive a male as male, and use terminology that reflects my perception, rather than that male's own perception.
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You'll be committing a hate crime if and when you break the hate crime laws.

theprestige said:
I want there to be room in your philosophy to tolerate people who perceive males and females as such.
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No. There is no room in my philosophy for people who do not accept the gender identification of others. Putting ones own opinion over other peoples' identity is... well, I'm having trouble coming up with a word other than "bigotry" so I guess that'll have to do.
 
d4m10n said:
I often use pronouns to refer to people without any idea of their gender identity, e.g. "Wow, that guy shouldn't be driving his diesel truck here inside the maintenance hangar," or "Damn that lady looks fit in her sundress." I'm just assigning pronouns based on apparent sex, without hardly thinking about it. You say these pronouns may be incorrect but I'd say they are doing what they are supposed to do, even if the cowboy in the truck sees herself as a cowgirl and the lady in the sundress sees themself as non-binary.
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Sure, casually, with people you don't know, whom you are never likely to meet. Personally I have tried to cultivate the habit of using gender-neutral language, including pronouns, in such situations, but whatever, who cares.

What actually matters is how you treat people you know, are aware of, encounter more than casually, may be spending time with. No-one cares if you misgender some rando you'll never be formally introduced to.

The real question is: if someone says to you, "my pronouns are they/them," are you going to respect that, or not?
 
You know what? I said that I'd circle back to the "attack helicopter" transphobic slur, but I think I can't be bothered. Anyone still uses this offensively inappropriate argument must be doing so because they have an ideological anti-trans agenda, just like the person who first used it as an attack on trans identity.
 
arthwollipot said:
Sure, casually, with people you don't know, whom you are never likely to meet. Personally I have tried to cultivate the habit of using gender-neutral language, including pronouns, in such situations, but whatever, who cares.

What actually matters is how you treat people you know, are aware of, encounter more than casually, may be spending time with. No-one cares if you misgender some rando you'll never be formally introduced to.

The real question is: if someone says to you, "my pronouns are they/them," are you going to respect that, or not?
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I am genuinely curious here.
Would it reflect ill on the person in the relationship if they decided they were ideologically opposed to non birth pronouns and would choose to not socialise?
I think you may have a particular interest here as I used to have.
 
arthwollipot-

You were weirdly precient with the punching of face thing because I just read that those words were used, on the Trans Pride stage in London just 4 days later.

'I was gonna come here and be really fluffy and be really nice and say yeah be really lovely and queer and gay... Nah, if you see a TERF, punch them in the ********** face!'
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And the crowd cheers!!



You can look up the name: Sarah Jane Baker. Arrested today for suspicion of inciting violence. You can read about all his previous horrific crimes. I read a snippet and decided I dont want that in my brain today.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/07/13/sarah-jane-baker-met-police-london-trans-pride/

eta: this is directed at you personally of course. Just seemed a coinkidinky
 
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Sherkeu said:
You can look up the name: Sarah Jane Baker. Arrested today for suspicion of inciting violence. You can read about all his previous horrific crimes. I read a snippet and decided I dont want that in my brain today.
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Her crimes. Quite an unpleasant person, from what I'm seeing. Britain's longest-serving transgender prisoner. But still "her".
 
arthwollipot said:
Why? What makes you so special?
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Nothing. That's kind of my point.

You are a dude who perceives yourself as a lady. I perceive you as a dude. Neither of us is special. Each of us has a human right to our own head space, our own perceptions of the world.

I'm not going to start perceiving you as a lady just because you tell me that's how you perceive yourself. Because you're not actually any more special than I am.[/url]

The entire premise of preferred pronouns is a claim to being a special person. Dudes who are okay with the idea that other people perceive them as dudes don't need to declare preferred pronouns or ask other people to use them. They don't need to run around saying, "you're committing an act of violence whenever you indicate that you perceive me as a dude."

No. There is no room in my philosophy for people who do not accept the gender identification of others. Putting ones own opinion over other peoples' identity is... well, I'm having trouble coming up with a word other than "bigotry" so I guess that'll have to do.
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Decoupled from sex, gender is meaningless. Preferred pronouns aren't a gender identification thing, they're a sex identification thing. More accurately, they're a sex misidentification thing. That's why they have to be announced.
 
arthwollipot said:
You know what? I said that I'd circle back to the "attack helicopter" transphobic slur, but I think I can't be bothered. Anyone still uses this offensively inappropriate argument must be doing so because they have an ideological anti-trans agenda, just like the person who first used it as an attack on trans identity.
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Trans rights activists hate the perception argument because they have no answer for it. All they can do is scream "bigot!" at anyone who doesn't a priori agree to let someone else's headspace trump their own.
 
Samson said:
You gave made your position quite clear and somewhat unsettling. I can't see this working.
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Mangled grammar aside, why is what I said "unsettling"? Why can't you see it working?

Look, there's a simple three-step process to determining what pronoun to use:

  1. Do you know what pronoun is correct? If so, use that.
  2. Ask them what pronoun to use.
  3. There is no step 3.
 
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