Ed India going down the Dictatorship road fast...

[theprestige]

I am sure by your standards unless there are storm troopers marching down the streets rounding up " Undesirables" We need to have nothing to worry about.

I'm sure you have something to worry about. I'm just not sure it's imminent dictatorship.

The situation in Manipur is bad with the government implicated in much of the violence against Christian ethnic groups there. In West Bengal the BJP worked hard to instigate poll violence at local elections. It's not that the BJP is not trying. Dissidents and critques of Modi continue to be harassed or arrested under extraordinary ordinances.

To my mind, a hallmark of dictatorship is an oppressive regime that does not enjoy broad popular support.

Democracies don't guarantee good governance. When a majority of the population has a bad idea, a democracy will go right ahead and implement that bad idea. That doesn't magically turn it into a dictatorship, though. Dictatorship is a form of government. You seem to be describing a failure mode of democracy, which is another form of government. A democracy behaving badly is not a dictatorship. It's just a democracy behaving badly.

Obviously, a democracy that's behaving badly can end up voting itself into a dictatorship (cf. Weimar Germany). But that doesn't seem to be happening in India, or at least not very quickly.

 

[The Atheist]

I'm sure you have something to worry about. I'm just not sure it's imminent dictatorship.

Turning into a dictatorship was the OP by someone else.

Whether or not the government is legitimate, democratic, or totalitarianist isn't the point, though.

The point is Modi and the BJP are doing very much what China is doing to its minorities, but criticism of our friend India is muted, much like criticism of our other despot pals - MBS, Netanyahu, et al.

 

[steenkh]

Obviously, a democracy that's behaving badly can end up voting itself into a dictatorship (cf. Weimar Germany). But that doesn't seem to be happening in India, or at least not very quickly.

Actually, Germany did not vote itself into a dictatorship. The dictatorship was described by the Nazis themselves as a power grab, made possible by naive coalition partners who thought Hitler could be managed if he was given the chancellorship. (The Nazis never had a majority, but they did hold a key vote in the parliament)

 

[theprestige]

Turning into a dictatorship was the OP by someone else.

India turning into a dictatorship, quickly, is the topic of the thread.

Whether or not the government is legitimate, democratic, or totalitarianist isn't the point, though.

It literally is.

The point is Modi and the BJP are doing very much what China is doing to its minorities,

Concentration camps? Australia has more concentration camps than India, I think.

but criticism of our friend India is muted, much like criticism of our other despot pals - MBS, Netanyahu, et al.

Realpolitik is a bitch.

 

[theprestige]

Actually, Germany did not vote itself into a dictatorship. The dictatorship was described by the Nazis themselves as a power grab, made possible by naive coalition partners who thought Hitler could be managed if he was given the chancellorship. (The Nazis never had a majority, but they did hold a key vote in the parliament)

There you go. Even badly behaved democracies have trouble converting to dictatorship through democratic means.

 

[Chanakya]

That's quibbling over semantics. Maybe deliberately, to muddy the waters; and maybe honestly, in good faith. But either way, it's pointless wanking over a technicality. Jerking off over a dictionary, from afar, while Rome burns. (To pre-empt more wanking, that's metaphorical, figurative. It isn't burning. And it isn't Rome.)

Trump brought the US down, in an unbelievably short time frame, to where legitimate elections were sought to be overthrown, and an actual coup attempted, that failed only because of laughable stupidity and incompetence. Two more straight terms of the orange turd would, swiftly, bring the US down to a dictatorial nightmare.

That's the nightmare that is India's reality. That's what India's up against. It's dictatorial enough, nightmarish enough, irrational enough, scary enough.

 

[grunion]

Ramayana isn't historical. The colloquialism was used for the character of Hanuman a tribal warrior. Now, logically they wouldn't be talking in sanskrit couplets.

I have seen comic books, tv cartoons, soft core porn and RPGs using characters and story lines from the Ramayana. Bowlderdizing this great material is the surest way to turn people off religion.

 

[dudalb]

Mr Obama said in an interview last week that India may "start pulling apart" if the rights of minorities weren't protected.

In an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour were widely reported in India.

"How should a president engage with those kinds of leaders, either in the naming of them or in the dealing with them?" she asked

Assam chief minister Himanta Biswa Sarma tweeted that there were many "Hussain Obama in India itself" who needed to be taken care of"

Full story

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-66016432

Not knocking Obama, but almost every expert on India has been saying this for a long time.

 

[dudalb]

Ramayana isn't historical. The colloquialism was used for the character of Hanuman a tribal warrior. Now, logically they wouldn't be talking in sanskrit couplets.

Ageed, but still, a bit too modern, perhaps.
It would be offputting to hear modern contemporary slang in a movie about King Arthur, for instance.

 

[dudalb]

Actually, Germany did not vote itself into a dictatorship. The dictatorship was described by the Nazis themselves as a power grab, made possible by naive coalition partners who thought Hitler could be managed if he was given the chancellorship. (The Nazis never had a majority, but they did hold a key vote in the parliament)

Hitler came to power by a dirty, slimy backroom political deal, where the people making the deal greatly overesitimated their ability to "Control" Hitler.

 

[theprestige]

That's quibbling over semantics. Maybe deliberately, to muddy the waters; and maybe honestly, in good faith. But either way, it's pointless wanking over a technicality. Jerking off over a dictionary, from afar, while Rome burns. (To pre-empt more wanking, that's metaphorical, figurative. It isn't burning. And it isn't Rome.)

Trump brought the US down, in an unbelievably short time frame, to where legitimate elections were sought to be overthrown, and an actual coup attempted, that failed only because of laughable stupidity and incompetence. Two more straight terms of the orange turd would, swiftly, bring the US down to a dictatorial nightmare.

That's the nightmare that is India's reality. That's what India's up against. It's dictatorial enough, nightmarish enough, irrational enough, scary enough.

I'm asking whether the premise of the thread has been validated by subsequent events. I don't think think it has. If the OP didn't mean to claim that India is going down the dictator road fast, they should have chosen their semantics a lot more carefully.

 

[Orphia Nay]

It's been 2 years and 3 months since the thread started, fwiw.

Did Germany slide into dictatorship fast? How fast is fast?

 

[Susheel]

I'm asking whether the premise of the thread has been validated by subsequent events. I don't think think it has. If the OP didn't mean to claim that India is going down the dictator road fast, they should have chosen their semantics a lot more carefully.

Really? And what do you base this on? Have you any idea what goes on at the ground level in India? Are you aware of the increased intimidation, harassment and even incarceration of activists and journalists critical of the Modi-Shah government? Are you aware of the state instigated ethnic cleansing occurring in Maniur currently (a la Gujarat 2002)? The human rights violations that continue in Kashmir? The attempts to disenfranchise whole swaths of the non-Hindu populace in Assam? The continued efforts of Governors to sabotage state level non-BJP governments through the use of central government enforcement machinery?...I can go on listing...

 

[steenkh]

I don’t think anyone is claiming that India is not sliding towards dictatorship. The question is if it is fast or slow, and that depends on the definition of dictatorship.

Hitler’s fast dictatorship hinged on an enabling law that made it possible for him to rule without parliament. Will Modi dispense with the parliament, or will it be more like in China where parliament only does what Xi wants?

 

[Orphia Nay]

The situation in Manipur has hit mainstream news here.

"Narendra Modi breaks silence over ethnic violence in Manipur after video of sexual assault on women emerges"'

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-21/modi-breaks-silence-over-ethnic-violence-in-manipur/102629288

Note, it seems to be only making news because Modi has finally said something.

 

[theprestige]

Really? And what do you base this on? Have you any idea what goes on at the ground level in India? Are you aware of the increased intimidation, harassment and even incarceration of activists and journalists critical of the Modi-Shah government? Are you aware of the state instigated ethnic cleansing occurring in Maniur currently (a la Gujarat 2002)? The human rights violations that continue in Kashmir? The attempts to disenfranchise whole swaths of the non-Hindu populace in Assam? The continued efforts of Governors to sabotage state level non-BJP governments through the use of central government enforcement machinery?...I can go on listing...

Democracies behaving badly are not dictatorships. They're just democracies behaving badly. If 51% of voters in a democracy vote to piss in the breakfast cereal of the other 49%, it's still a democracy. Just one with a majority of jerks.

Democracies aren't magic. They don't guarantee good behavior or humanitarian outcomes. You can easily have democracies that are unpleasant to live in. Dictatorship is a form of government, not a cultural value of the citizenry.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I don't know what the word for it is, but "Theocracy" comes close.

 

[theprestige]

I don't know what the word for it is, but "Theocracy" comes close.

"Democracy" comes even closer, once you remember that people are very often jerks, and self-governing people aren't immune to governing each other like jerks.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Theomocracy.

Someone added me to an Indian politics group on Facebook, and the number of times people post "Jai Hind" is far worse than the MAGAnuts.

 

[Susheel]

"Democracy" comes even closer, once you remember that people are very often jerks, and self-governing people aren't immune to governing each other like jerks.

You can go ahead and indulge in semantic games. That is a privilege you have in being an unaffected observer who might think that empathy equals, what's the term you love to throw around?...oh yes... Virtue signalling. But for those affected, the route to authoritarianism is very real and palpable.