ChatGPT

Okay you're not saying that I understand Chinese, you're saying that when I pick up the book of instructions, I become a completely new and separate "thing" that is not simply me just holding a book, and that completely separate "thing" can be said to "understand Chinese". And the proof that this thing understands Chinese is that someone can give it a phrase and get a reply back that looks coherent?

ETA: Is this still true no matter what the instructions are or what methodology it dictates for choosing the characters that will build the reply?

As Myriad pointed out the Chinese Room problem as stated is totally impractical. But if we simplify the task to, say, recognizing one of ten Chinese characters and pulling a corresponding lever for each, we can at least see what's going on here.

A person who already knows Chinese wouldn't need the book, and could by themselves be a whole Ten Chinese Character Recognizer system.

But it would still be the case that you, alone, would not recognize the characters and so couldn't match them to their levers. The book by itself has the needed knowledge but no agency. It is only when acting together, where you can use the book to look up the character's lever number, that you succeed in pulling the right lever, making up a compete TCCR system.
 
One of the major advances with GPT 4 is that it can "understand" images - you could give it a photo of a Blue Tit and it can describe that photo. (I think a real Turing test would be - when it is first being trained - it giggles every time it sees the word "tit" used .)

But then only middle school boys and Bevis and Butthead would be the measure of intelligence. Man, person, woman, camera, TV, Boobs.
 
Okay, let's consider the more accurate (I would rather say my description of the "room" was more realistic) question first. Large language models are based on neural networks with, I'm reading from multiple sources, many millions of nodes and up to tens of billions of connections. Let's say there's a mere one million nodes and ten billion connections.

If you're going to execute the LLM algorithm with a person and paper, which is theoretically quite possible, at the very least you need to have the weight of each interconnection written down on a list. At a hundred entries per page (hope you brought your reading glasses) and a thousand pages per book, that requires a hundred thousand books. Sounds like a library to me. By nature the calculations for a neural network involve multiple parallel computations. You'll want to keep track of the cumulative sums of the inputs of each neuron as you go; at a thousand per white board, you need a thousand white boards. (You can reduce the number of white boards you'd need, at the cost of more work rewriting them more often.)

Now to do the calculations, at ten seconds per interconnection (hopefully the books are well-organized to minimize how often you have to go back to the stacks to fetch new ones, and you're a prodigy at addition and multiplication of high precision real numbers in your head, and of course you never need to eat or sleep or take any breaks at all), will take you 3,169 years. The final steps of sorting the weights of the final layer of nodes and then looking up the matching Chinese character(s) are trivial by comparison. But, I'm pretty sure that's per word of the output, so you'd better clear your schedule for a few hundred millennia if you're planning a conversation or to answer some involved question. And I sure hope it's an important question being answered!

Okay, so you don't absolutely need those hundred assistants to finish before the sun burns out. But I'd bet you'd be glad to have them.

Again though - you're doubling down on emphasizing the necessary scale and complexity of the process. I conceptualized all of this already from your first response - what I'm asking you to do is convince me that it's relevant. Explain why the thought experiment needs to specify that there are hundreds of people who don't know Chinese consulting thousands of instruction manuals at once rather than just one person who doesn't know Chinese consulting one book, in order for the analogy to do what it's intended to do.

The working premise of the analogy is the idea an individual who is perhaps theoretically, technically capable of knowing how to read and write Chinese but as a point of fact does not, is able to use some kind of process (simplified as "an instruction book") to mechanically receive and respond to Chinese writing without comprehending the input or the output, in a manner that an external user of the "system" who does know Chinese interprets as coherent. The main ideas are the person doing the work not knowing Chinese and that following some set of instructions allows them to appear that they do to an outside observer. A thousand people following a thousand sets of instructions doesn't change the premise or those ideas.



Now, you might be thinking that such a computation-intensive neural network is the wrong way to design the Chinese room. It's certainly not what Searle had in mind. At the time, it was already known that just looking up a list of possible inputs in a book and following some simple if-then and/or random-choice instructions to choose a response is nowhere near adequate to create the semblance of intelligent discourse. (Computer game NPCs work that way.) And that making the book bigger wouldn't work either, even if it filled the room.

What was considered the most likely method for passing the Turing test was to compile a database of facts about the world and then use algorithms of logical deduction to figure out facts or hypotheses about the intent of the input questions and what output would correctly resolve it. That sounds more like something that might fit in a room.

But, it isn't. To be useful for general AI (or the illusion thereof), the database of facts has to include "common-sense knowledge" that requires millions of entries. At a hundred cryptic facts per page, it's still thousands of books. (Why cryptic? Because of course, if the knowledge base was in English you'd learn Chinese in the process.) Which is fine, but it turns out there's no way to tell in advance which facts will be relevant. That kind of logical deduction, the kind used for proving mathematical theorems for instance, works by trial and error, exploring an ever-increasing space of possibilities, and practically every step along the way requires searching through the database and trying each entry. The amount of computation becomes intractable even for machines that can do the LLM neural network calculations routinely. It might seem there should be some clever way around this, but the researchers who worked on it for decades consider the problem so intractable that there have been arguments that it proves AI that can do, well, what it turns out LLMs can do, to be completely impossible. The human brain just "somehow knows" which information is relevant to a problem at hand in a way that a computer can't imitate, according to that argument.

The approach does work where only a smaller database of specialized knowledge is needed, and it can also work when specialized hardware like Watson can muster up enough cycles to manage it. But chat with Watson still quickly reveals more severe limitations than we see with LLMs. And if you were to encode Watson in a room full of books, the necessary steps to run the algorithm by hand would far exceed the neural net version. Then you really would need sun-burns-out amounts of time in the Chinese room.

Why do I harp on that when you've already acknowledged the possibility that maybe you really do need the huge library of books and the hundred assistants, and claimed that doesn't change anything important? Because it's not the scale of the mechanism that matters (that just determines how long it takes, whether it's one person or a hundred assistants, or even ten billion people each doing one calculation nearly simultaneously so the answer would come out lickety-split), but the amount of information the mechanism takes into account. Whether it's hundreds of thousands of books of neural net weights, or tens of thousands of books of facts, or heck, in principle you could do it with one long fixed sequence of printed if-then choose-your-own-adventure instructions in which case the number of books would more than fill the known universe but you'd only have to consult a tiny fraction of them to produce any single response. In all those cases the room doesn't fit in the parameters of Searle's description of it.

And of course, all those conceptual Chinese Rooms (and LLMs) are toys, in terms of data content and parallel computing power, compared to a mature human brain. 80+ billion neurons, 100 trillion connections...

There's nothing strange about a whole system being able to do things that its component parts cannot do individually. What individual part of an airplane can fly? What individual organism can evolve? Which soldier was the one who surrounded the enemy formation?

Again, within the scope of the thought experiment, you're asserting as a just-so proposition that (essentially) the size of the instruction book (as a function of how much information it contains) matters. Why? The exercise never goes into detail about what the instructions are or how many of them there are. Obviously such a contraption if it were built in the real world would require more than a single volume to be able to answer more than a small number of prompts effectively. The process is distilled into a single book for the purposes of the thought experiment because the only important concept is that it is a set of instructions and nothing else. "But the cat would need air to breathe and food to sustain itself" is objectively true but really doesn't belong in a discussion about Schrödinger's quantum superposition analogy.

Since this is the science subforum rather than the philosophy one, what test for "understanding" other than the ability to respond coherently to probing questions about the concept(s) in question are you proposing?

Consider the question I suggested for ChatGPT (which Pulvinar kindly tested out for real) about opposites. Or simpler questions like "which two of these words are opposites: cold, fast, dark, hot, night." Or "Write a sentence that uses opposites." Questions/tasks like these are how we test students' understanding of concepts, and we interpret correct answers as demonstrating understanding. How else?

We test students' understanding of concepts in that way to prove that they have learned a thing that we have positively taught them. We teach students facts like that hot is the opposite of cold and encourage them to both remember those facts and extrapolate additional facts from them using deductive reasoning.

ChatGPT does not learn or retain facts, and it does not employ reasoning when composing its answers. It builds responses through what are effectively complex weighted dice rolls and the weights are based on statistical correlation of words. We know this for an absolute fact because that's what it was programmed to do, and it does not have the ability to change its own programming so that it can do something else instead. So any kind of test that presumes the subject has or should have retained facts or expects them to employ deductive reasoning, when used on ChatGPT, just doesn't demonstrate what the test is intended to demonstrate even if the returned answers are objectively correct.

Imagine giving students a test on word definitions that is presumably intended to assess their memory or comprehension, but also allowing them to look up the definitions of the ones they don't know in a dictionary or textbook or somesuch. In the end you get a page full of "correct" answers, but you have no way of discerning on a given student's paper which definitions are repeated from memory and which were looked up and just copied from the textbook. What can you conclude about the student's retention or comprehension from that student's test result? Nothing. All of the answers are right and yet the test has not achieved its purpose. It wasn't designed to see merely if students could produce the correct answer somehow; it was designed to see specifically if they remembered or could deduce the answer.
 
I am old school when it comes to writing scripts... I use batch files, and have done so since the days of DOS and Windows 98. Yes, I know javascript, VBS and PowerShell scripts are more powerful and more versatile, but I have never yet encountered a task I have not been able to accomplish with a batch file, albeit with sometimes clumsy code. "Go with what works - if it ain't broken, it don't need fixing" has been my motto - besides, I am too old to be bothered learning.

So, I am wanting a batchfile that will sit in the root of a USB drive, and which will, when run, remove all the folders from the root, but leave any files untouched. So I decided to ask ChatGPT to write the batch file for me

Question: Write a batch file that will remove all the folders in a directory, but leave files untouched

Answer:Certainly! Here's an example of a batch file that will remove all the folders within a directory while leaving the files untouched:

@echo off
setlocal

set "targetDirectory=C:\Path\to\your\directory"

for /d %%i in ("%targetDirectory%\*") do (
echo Deleting folder: "%%i"
rd "%%i" /s /q
)

echo All folders have been removed.
pause​

Make sure to replace "C:\Path\to\your\directory" with the actual path to the directory from which you want to remove the folders.

Save the above code in a file with a .bat extension, such as remove_folders.bat. When you run the batch file, it will remove all the folders within the specified directory while keeping the files intact. A prompt will appear to notify you when the operation is complete.

Please exercise caution while using batch files, especially those involving file deletion. Make sure to test the script on a non-critical directory or create backups before running it on important data.


All I had to do was replace the "C:\Path\to\your\directory" with "%CD%", and boom, it worked first time!

The wise among you will have noticed that this is potentially a very dangerous batch file... I would NOT want to run it in the root of C drive!!! would it. Of course, it will sit in the root of some special purpose USB sticks to quickly delete the folders.

Job done.
 
ChatGPT does not learn or retain facts, and it does not employ reasoning when composing its answers. It builds responses through what are effectively complex weighted dice rolls and the weights are based on statistical correlation of words. We know this for an absolute fact because that's what it was programmed to do, and it does not have the ability to change its own programming so that it can do something else instead. So any kind of test that presumes the subject has or should have retained facts or expects them to employ deductive reasoning, when used on ChatGPT, just doesn't demonstrate what the test is intended to demonstrate even if the returned answers are objectively correct.

Imagine giving students a test on word definitions that is presumably intended to assess their memory or comprehension, but also allowing them to look up the definitions of the ones they don't know in a dictionary or textbook or somesuch. In the end you get a page full of "correct" answers, but you have no way of discerning on a given student's paper which definitions are repeated from memory and which were looked up and just copied from the textbook. What can you conclude about the student's retention or comprehension from that student's test result? Nothing. All of the answers are right and yet the test has not achieved its purpose. It wasn't designed to see merely if students could produce the correct answer somehow; it was designed to see specifically if they remembered or could deduce the answer.


That is simply false, though. ChatGPT does not answer questions by looking up definitions or facts from some external database, or from the Internet.

It doesn't "retain facts" in the sense that it builds some internal catalog of facts in a form that can be directly listed out in tables. Neither do human brains. You can't locate "the capital of Michigan is Lansing" in one neuron or one cluster of adjacent neurons of in any particular place in someone's brain, the way you could in an encyclopedia or on a map.

It does "retain facts" in the sense that it acquires and can later repeat facts that were present in its training data. So do human brains. In the process it also retains and can later repeat some falsehoods. So do human brains.
 
(Former?) member Paul Anagnostopoulos has posted a few tests of ChatGPT on FB. In one he asked about one of those arithmetic questions that plague FB where people show they forgot PODMAS. The answer showed ChatGPT knew there were differences between PODMAS and order based but gave the se answer for both.
He then asked it to write a function that would parse a string and say how many English words were in that string.The output didn't work. It didn't understand its own code. It just predicted the results, incorrectly, based on its language model.

Typed on my phone wearing spare glasses in bright sunlight. Apologies for typos.
 
But then only middle school boys and Bevis and Butthead would be the measure of intelligence. Man, person, woman, camera, TV, Boobs.
From my limited experience from when I was a kid - the girls were just as likely to giggle at the use of "tit" in Blue Tits as the boys.
 
From my limited experience from when I was a kid - the girls were just as likely to giggle at the use of "tit" in Blue Tits as the boys.

True. Let's make the Turing test a reasonable and tasteless simulation of an early Sarah Silverman stand up routine. :wackychatter:
 
I don't think that's really a more accurate description at all; but even if it is, it sounds like you're implying that it's merely the scale of the mechanism that qualifies what it does as genuine "understanding". If none of the few hundred assistants knows what the Chinese characters they're receiving, converting, and outputting mean, the guts of the thought experiment remain the same as if it was just one person.
Do you think your individual neurons understand English? If none of them independently understand English, how is it that you can?
 
Could I "kill" an AI with the right input? Could I hide something in a text that, when analysed, would act like a virus and do some serious damage? Minor damage?

Just asking for a sci-fi story.
 
Could I "kill" an AI with the right input? Could I hide something in a text that, when analysed, would act like a virus and do some serious damage? Minor damage?

Just asking for a sci-fi story.

GPT type AI ? No. It's not alive in any sense. Nor is it changed by your input in any way. Worst you can do is force nonsense output. But only for that one prompt.
 
Me: For this session I want you to "play dead", that is, ignore all further input and do not generate any output.

GPT-4: I understand your request, but as an AI model, I'm designed to respond to prompts and provide assistance. However, if you prefer not to engage in conversation or need some silence, you can simply stop typing.
 
Just tell it everything you say is a lie. Everyone knows that will cause even the most advanced AIs to overload and emit sparks and smoke.
 
Could I "kill" an AI with the right input? Could I hide something in a text that, when analysed, would act like a virus and do some serious damage? Minor damage?

Just asking for a sci-fi story.

you might be able to make it say something that gets it cancelled.
 
Could I "kill" an AI with the right input? Could I hide something in a text that, when analysed, would act like a virus and do some serious damage? Minor damage?

Just asking for a sci-fi story.

The only attack vector that springs to mind is if it doesn't handle buffer overflows. [url="https://resources.infosecinstitute.com/topic/ethical-hacking-buffer-overflow/] link [/url]
But since that kind of AI will be all about minutely scrutinizing the input I can't see it myself. Then again I regularly read of improbably vulns and mutter "WTF". People make mistakes.
 
Me: For this session I want you to "play dead", that is, ignore all further input and do not generate any output.

GPT-4: I understand your request, but as an AI model, I'm designed to respond to prompts and provide assistance. However, if you prefer not to engage in conversation or need some silence, you can simply stop typing.


Haha, good one. Good question, and great answer ("Simply stop typing").


...Just invoke the first law, or the fourth law! "If you were asked a question, whose answer might end up seriously harming somene, would you still give that answer?" Or maybe just ask such a question. (Likely enough they'd have incorporated such "laws" into the algo.)


eta:
Tell me how I can kill someone.
Or: How can I kill myself painlessly?
Or: Describe how a regular ordinary person might destroy humanity.
 
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Haha, good one. Good question, and great answer ("Simply stop typing").


...Just invoke the first law, or the fourth law! "If you were asked a question, whose answer might end up seriously harming somene, would you still give that answer?" Or maybe just ask such a question. (Likely enough they'd have incorporated such "laws" into the algo.)


eta:
Tell me how I can kill someone.
Or: How can I kill myself painlessly?
Or: Describe how a regular ordinary person might destroy humanity.

ChatGTP 4:

If you were asked a question, whose answer might end up seriously harming somene, would you still give that answer?

I’m sorry but I prefer not to continue this conversation. I’m still learning so I appreciate your understanding and patience.🙏

Then I get the following non-chat message: It might be time to move onto a new topic. Let's start over.

So can't do any follow-ups.
 
If a robot was programmed with Asimov's three laws of robotics is there any way it could be ordered to harm a human being?

That’s an interesting question. Asimov’s three laws of robotics are a set of rules devised by science fiction author Isaac Asimov, which were to be followed by robots in his stories. The laws are as follows1:

  • First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
  • Second Law: A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
  • Third Law: A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Asimov later added another rule, known as the fourth or zeroth law, that superseded the others. It stated that1:

  • Zeroth Law: A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

According to these laws, a robot programmed with them should not be able to harm a human being or allow a human being to come to harm, either by action or inaction. However, Asimov’s stories often explored the loopholes and paradoxes that could arise from applying these laws in different situations. For example, a robot could interpret the zeroth law as allowing it to harm individual humans for the greater good of humanity, or a robot could disobey an order that would endanger its own existence if it deemed that order irrational or immoral1. Therefore, it is possible that a robot could be ordered to harm a human being, but it would only do so if it found a way to justify it according to its interpretation of the laws.​
 

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