Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[theprestige]

Same as a white only gym.

You must be talking about the great controversy of the mid-20th century, when white Americans were demanding access to black-only social clubs. /s

 

[lionking]

I'm not obligated to stop making arguments because they make your argument look bad. Shove your "oH uR juST plAYing Da rAce Card!"

"I want to be kept separate from THE OTHER because I'm scared of them or don't like being around them" is the core argument for both women only gyms and white only water fountains. Deal with it or die made about it.

Life must be so simple to you.

Meanwhile many others see fundamental differences between race and sex/gender issues.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm not obligated to stop making arguments because they make your argument look bad.

They don't, because race doesn't equal sex. The fact that you can't make an argument against sex segregation on its own merits does make your own position look bad.

Shove your "oH uR juST plAYing Da rAce Card!"

It's not even that. The race card is how I would describe people trying to make a conflict about race when race isn't the important factor. But there is no race involved here. What you're doing is even more pathetic than playing the race card.

"I want to be kept separate from THE OTHER because I'm scared of them or don't like being around them" is the core argument for both women only gyms and white only water fountains. Deal with it or die made about it.

Let me repeat this since you couldn't figure it out last time I said it.

I did not ask whether or why sex segregated gyms were necessary. I asked what harm they did. Completely unnecessary things can be harmless. Completely necessary things can do harm. If you cannot say what harm they do, then simply admit that you can't. But so far, you have not even tried to describe the harm they do. Your distaste for them is of no interest to me.

 

[trustbutverify]

What can I say, segregation has had its day in the court of public opinion and lost.

Nothing stops these people from forming their own private, discriminatory clubs and associations (at least in the US), but if you want to open a business to the public you become burdened the public's laws. Sucks to suck.

Goddamn Karen bitches and their female-only bathrooms! Sue them into dust.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Goddamn Karen bitches and their female-only bathrooms! Sue them into dust.

I mean, yeah. Litigation is generally how these kinds of policies are enforced. if such discrimination is not lawful in these jurisdictions, suing these Karens is exactly the intended enforcement mechanism.

I'm ambivalent if private right of action is preferable versus enforcement by a state agency (nor does one necessarily preclude the other).

 

[Brainster]

No. Sex and race are not equivalent. If you want to argue against sex-based segregation in gyms, you need to be able to do it on its own merits without appealing to race. If you can't, then you don't have an argument against it.

Race is not a good comp but it's all they've got, and so they are going to stick with it. Don't want men undressing next to you in the women's changing room? Hey, ignorant whites didn't want Blacks sitting next to them on the bus. It's 100% the same thing. Darren A. Merager is Rosa Parks.

 

[LondonJohn]

Race is not a good comp but it's all they've got, and so they are going to stick with it. Don't want men undressing next to you in the women's changing room? Hey, ignorant whites didn't want Blacks sitting next to them on the bus. It's 100% the same thing. Darren A. Merager is Rosa Parks.

Not 100% - you're overreaching. But most certainly in the same ballpark, no matter how many people in this thread reflexively try to insist that it's not. What a ******** this thread still is.

 

[LondonJohn]

(Oh, and trans women are not men)

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay. Then someone explain to me like I'm 5 why not wanting to have a gay man in my locker room because he might rape me would make me homophonic then.

The hilarity in how often this topic comes back around to trying to chart the threat level of various penises like they are pieces of graphite from the reactor core at Chernobyl..

"Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. A penis attached to a gay man around other men has a threat rating of .0001 kilorapes, a transgender penis around ciswomen has a threat rating of 5.3 kilorapes, while of course a penis attached to a straight man around women has a threat rating of 10,000 kilorapes as outlined in this chart here...."

 

[TomB]

What can I say, segregation has had its day in the court of public opinion and lost.

Nothing stops these people from forming their own private, discriminatory clubs and associations (at least in the US), but if you want to open a business to the public you become burdened the public's laws. Sucks to suck.

Just to point out that the entity whose allowed existence you questioned, Curves, is a private club. (As are most health clubs.) they are not technically open to the public. You must be a member. You can't just come off the street and participate. you have to join and become a member. (~$150 initiation fee and then a monthly fee depending on membership level.)'

Now, the requirements for membership are pretty light so applications are not likely to be rejected. But it's still a private club as you describe.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay. Do an all male gym and see how far you get.

 

[Brainster]

Okay. Then someone explain to me like I'm 5 why not wanting to have a gay man in my locker room because he might rape me would make me homophonic then.

The hilarity in how often this topic comes back around to trying to chart the threat level of various penises like they are pieces of graphite from the reactor core at Chernobyl..

"Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. A penis attached to a gay man around other men has a threat rating of .0001 kilorapes, a transgender penis around ciswomen has a threat rating of 5.3 kilorapes, while of course a penis attached to a straight man around women has a threat rating of 10,000 kilorapes as outlined in this chart here...."

And fortunately women can tell the difference between transgender penises and straight man penises at a glance.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Just to point out that the entity whose allowed existence you questioned, Curves, is a private club. (As are most health clubs.) they are not technically open to the public. You must be a member. You can't just come off the street and participate. you have to join and become a member. (~$150 initiation fee and then a monthly fee depending on membership level.)'

Now, the requirements for membership are pretty light so applications are not likely to be rejected. But it's still a private club as you describe.

As far as I can tell, Curves is only required to not discriminate in some states. I wonder if anyone has really even pushed the issue in court in many cases. Even if they are required to admit men, their marketing as a women's gym probably has the intended effect of almost exclusively attracting women members.

The issue of whether or not an organization is a private club is more complicated than just having a membership scheme:

Following the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1965, dozens of businesses and facilities – including swimming pools – tried to argue that they were "private clubs" so that they could exclude African Americans. The courts quickly developed a test to distinguish between truly "private" organizations and those that only claimed to be. Very few facilities qualified as truly "private."

In order to be exempt from the civil rights laws, a "private" club must truly reserve its facilities for members, and must have genuinely exclusive membership criteria – a club that will admit anyone who is not African American does not qualify. Courts deciding whether a club is “private” in this sense will consider the history and purpose of the club (including whether it was created to circumvent desegregation), the club advertises for members, it is directly controlled by its members and operated solely for their benefit, and the club is operated for profit.

https://www.aclupa.org/en/press-releases/when-private-club-not-private-club#:~:text=In%20order%20to%20be%20exempt,African%20American%20does%20not%20qualify.

Curves, being a gym with pretty much wide open enrollment for any woman who wants to join, probably would not qualify as private.

 

[Ziggurat]

Okay. Then someone explain to me like I'm 5 why not wanting to have a gay man in my locker room because he might rape me would make me homophonic then.

Whether or not you're homophobic isn't a public policy issue.

The hilarity in how often this topic comes back around to trying to chart the threat level of various penises like they are pieces of graphite from the reactor core at Chernobyl.

Almost as often as people pretending that there aren't important differences between the sexes.

 

[TomB]

I mean, yeah. Litigation is generally how these kinds of policies are enforced. if such discrimination is not lawful in these jurisdictions, suing these Karens is exactly the intended enforcement mechanism.

I'm ambivalent if private right of action is preferable versus enforcement by a state agency (nor does one necessarily preclude the other).

Do you believe that bathrooms and locker rooms that segregate by sex or gender should be legal? Regardless of whether it's by sex or gender, both discriminate.

ETA: Note, that's not a question of what you think the law is, but rather what you think the law should be.

 

[Ziggurat]

I mean, yeah. Litigation is generally how these kinds of policies are enforced. if such discrimination is not lawful in these jurisdictions, suing these Karens is exactly the intended enforcement mechanism.

If you're the one suing, you're probably the Karen.

 

[Ziggurat]

Okay. Do an all male gym and see how far you get.

The primary obstacle to male gyms isn't political opposition but market share. There's far less demand for male gyms than female gyms. Most guys either don't care or want mixed, so going all-male is a really hard business model, much harder than all-female. But they have existed.

 

[lobosrul5]

Whether or not you're homophobic isn't a public policy issue.

SOME (non-trans)women do not want transwomen in their bathroom or locker room. This is a public policy issue, that seems to have not been decided yet.

SOME men do not want gay men in their bathroom or locker room. This is a public policy issue, and they've been told too bad dude, homophobia no longer has a place in our society.

SOME people do not want people of other races in their bathroom or locker room. This is a public policy issue, and they've been told racism no longer has a place in our society.

Now just because 2 and 3 have been decided one way, does not make women's concerns about number 1 invalid. Nor does it mean our society has to make the same public policy for 1 as we did for 2 and 3. But they are all public policy issues.

 

[Ziggurat]

SOME (non-trans)women do not want transwomen in their bathroom or locker room. This is a public policy issue, that seems to have not been decided yet.

Sure, but my point is that the public policy issue is whether or not to allow/require admission, not how any one individual feels about it.

Now just because 2 and 3 have been decided one way, does not make women's concerns about number 1 invalid. Nor does it mean our society has to make the same public policy for 1 as we did for 2 and 3. But they are all public policy issues.

In this regard, I'm disappointed I have to keep saying it (not to you, lobosrul5), but male on female sexual predation is different than every other combination of sexual predation. There is no symmetry. And there is absolutely no reason we have to treat them the same.

 

[d4m10n]

We were talking about women's only gyms and public accommodations, not sport.

If you're going to bring up the racial segregation analogy, you're going to have to deal with all the implications of the analogy. That includes sports leagues as well as public accommodations.

Either way, when you run this analogy you are confusing groups which are meaningfully different (e.g. males and females) with groups that are not (e.g. African Americans and European Americans).

Black men do not require different bathroom facilities than white men, but black men do want different facilities than black women, because urinals are quick and convenient. Similarly, women want a bin for feminine hygiene products, but men do not.