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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

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JoeMorgue said:
Without starting yet another sub-debate a lot of the issue is that we lump two (to me anyway) very different things under the vague term "trans."
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It used to be that transsexuals and transvestites were different things.
 
Ziggurat said:
It used to be that transsexuals and transvestites were different things.
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No, it used to be they were considered the same thing (they were all transvestites). It wasn't until 1950 or so that a distinction was made in English between transvestites and transsexuals. That distinction is still in place.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Until you just brought it up I hadn't realized how long it had been since I heard that term in any modern discourse.
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Is it even possible for a woman to be a transvestite these days? It's pretty common for women to wear what would have previously been considered strictly men's clothing, and it's not really considered cross dressing but rather just part of the normal range of styles available.

Or has crossdressing always meant men who dress in women's clothing?
 
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theprestige said:
I'm in a country where the law says a corporation is a person. Not surprisingly, many people find the law unconvincing on this point.
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They can find it unconvincing all they want. The reality is that the law does treat corporations as legal persons (for some purposes, at least).

If you can legally change your sex, that entails a social recognition of the possibility of a change in gender.
 
mumblethrax said:
No, it used to be they were considered the same thing (they were all transvestites). It wasn't until 1950 or so that a distinction was made in English between transvestites and transsexuals. That distinction is still in place.
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Not anymore. Now it's all just transgender. Both transsexual and transvestite words are effectively verboten.
 
mumblethrax said:
This is not true. It's still right there in the DSM V.
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Yet how often does either word appear even in this thread? Almost never, and usually to point out that the words aren't used anymore. The whole focus on "gender" rather than sex, the push for self-ID, the insistence that you can be transgender without gender dysphoria, and even the whole "truscum" thing all serve to conflate transvestites with transsexuals.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Is it even possible for a woman to be a transvestite these days? It's pretty common for women to wear what would have previously been considered strictly men's clothing, and it's not really considered cross dressing but rather just part of the normal range of styles available.

Or has crossdressing always meant men who dress in women's clothing?
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Semantics and labeling of the parts aside, I do think a distinction between.

"I identify as the other sex/gender, therefore I will make actual physical changes to my body"

And

"I identify as the other sex/gender, therefore I literally become one the moment I decide to identify as it"

is a valid one that has a place in some parts of this discussion.
 
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Ziggurat said:
Isn't it? Transvestite males can be transwomen, can they not?
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You could probably be someone who desired to be a member of the opposite sex while also fetishizing crossdressing, sure.

There, we talked about it. Nothing bad happened.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Semantics and labeling of the parts aside, I do think a distinction between.

"I identify as the other sex/gender, therefore I will make actual physical changes to my body"

And

"I identify as the other sex/gender, therefore I literally become one the moment I decide to identify as it"

is a valid one that has a place in the discussion.
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I was more commenting on how much gendered divides have changed even within living memory. Common women's style now includes what would have traditionally been clearly thought as men's clothes.

Seeing a woman in loose blue jeans and a hoodie isn't going to bring "cross dresser" to most people's minds first. Do people consider butch lesbians to be crossdressing?
 
TurkeysGhost said:
I was more commenting on how much gendered divides have changed even within living memory. Common women's style now includes what would have traditionally been clearly thought as men's clothes.

Seeing a woman in loose blue jeans and a hoodie isn't going to bring "cross dresser" to most people's minds first.
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Well yes because, as I keep saying, there are only two actual possible categories of variables at play here; actual objective biological differences that don't give the tiniest toss what anyone "identifies" as and culture expectations. Much of the argument going on in this topic isn't so much trying to create a new 3rd variable but pretending like one has always existed and what is has already been agreed upon and accepted.

Yes clothing in general is much more gender neutral then it was even within most of our lifetimes.

Actually it's legit hard to imagine what a biological woman could dress up in that would scream "trying to dress like a man" to most average people on the streets. I can't off the top of my head think of a purely "male" article of clothing.

It really is hard to imagine what the female to male equivalent of drag queen even would be.

We're straying somewhat from the topic but not all the way from it.
 
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