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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

ahhell said:
My actual name is David, I feel bad about correcting people who say Dave.

Now I know I should punch them in the face when that happens.
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My actual name is Andrew and I hate being called Andy. I will correct people when they use the wrong name. Punching in the face is absolutely not required. If someone forgets and calls me Andy after I point this out, that's totally okay. I'll just give them another gentle reminder.

Emily's Cat said:
But wolli is insisting not that we be courteous to G-Flip while in their presence... but all the time. We're being told that we must accept G-Flip's personal belief about themself even when they're not present, and will never ever know about it.
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Okay, for a start, I'm not "insisting" on anything. Referring to them correctly is polite, and, well, correct. And it fosters an environment where referring to people correctly is the norm. Framing this as "insisting" is inaccurate.
 
ahhell said:
My actual name is David, I feel bad about correcting people who say Dave.
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I hate being called Jerry. I don’t feel bad about telling people that and if they persist in calling me Jerry, it tells me something about them.

Being called Jerry when you hate it isn’t violence though and doesn’t warrant a violent response or even cancellation by anybody except me.
 
On the basis that everything from a physical attack to giving someone a dirty look could be considered by the recipient to be violence, then clearly misgendering someone could be an act of violence, whether intentional or not. However the use of the word violence for such a wide spread of behaviours dilutes the meaning of the word until it becomes virtually irrelevant.

A bit like a few other words thrown around on this forum.
 
Lplus said:
On the basis that everything from a physical attack to giving someone a dirty look could be considered by the recipient to be violence, then clearly misgendering someone could be an act of violence, whether intentional or not. However the use of the word violence for such a wide spread of behaviours dilutes the meaning of the word until it becomes virtually irrelevant.

A bit like a few other words thrown around on this forum.
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Agreed. Is an angry look now "violence"? Some here would say so.
 
Hercules56 said:
Agreed. Is an angry look now "violence"? Some here would say so.
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If the person receiving the look considers themselve violated or denigrated or disrespected etc etc, then it seems it is. Even a condescending smile could be classed as disrespectful.

:shrug:
 
I think some people are looking for black and white definitions where none exist. Is a dirty look violence? Maybe. Is calling someone by the wrong name violence? Depends. Is misgendering violence? It could be considered so.

It's a complex issue. Things don't always fall into neat pigeonholes.
 
arthwollipot said:
I think some people are looking for black and white definitions where none exist. Is a dirty look violence? Maybe. Is calling someone by the wrong name violence? Depends. Is misgendering violence? It could be considered so.

It's a complex issue. Things don't always fall into neat pigeonholes.
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This has basically been my position for the entire thread: context matters and humans are are complex critters.

Anyone who thinks humans must conform to language and categories has it the wrong way around. Language is attempting to describe human experience, not define it.
 
Upchurch said:
This has basically been my position for the entire thread: context matters and humans are are complex critters.

Anyone who thinks humans must conform to language and categories has it the wrong way around. Language is attempting to describe human experience, not define it.
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Wouldn't that also apply to people writing policy? Wouldn't that also apply to people in this thread who feel justified in "correcting" other people's language to force conformity to their views?
 
arthwollipot said:
Okay, for a start, I'm not "insisting" on anything. Referring to them correctly is polite, and, well, correct. And it fosters an environment where referring to people correctly is the norm. Framing this as "insisting" is inaccurate.
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Why do you think it is correct? On what basis do you determine the accuracy or inaccuracy of it?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Wouldn't that also apply to people writing policy? Wouldn't that also apply to people in this thread who feel justified in "correcting" other people's language to force conformity to their views?
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It's not enforcing conformity to anyone's views. The people writing the policy are acknowledging that humans are complex and that language is descriptive, not prescriptive.

So, of course, it applies to the people writing the policy. They, presumably, are also following the policy.
 
Upchurch said:
It's not enforcing conformity to anyone's views. The people writing the policy are acknowledging that humans are complex and that language is descriptive, not prescriptive.

So, of course, it applies to the people writing the policy. They, presumably, are also following the policy.
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Yep, you can think what you like, but you can't say it.
 
Upchurch said:
It's not enforcing conformity to anyone's views. The people writing the policy are acknowledging that humans are complex and that language is descriptive, not prescriptive.
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Any policy which sanctions people for using the wrong words is prescriptive not descriptive. And that's ok, whoever we're trying to teach students which wards to use.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why do you think it is correct? On what basis do you determine the accuracy or inaccuracy of it?
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Who determines a person's gender? They do. By what authority do you cast doubt on the correctness of a person's gender identification?

Or as I have expressed it previously, what value is there in doubting it?
 
Emily's Cat said:
How is that NOT forcing humans to conform to language?
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It is, that was my rather obscure way of saying so.
Upchurch said:
You can say what you think, but you can't make it personal. Schools have this funny thing about not bullying students, faculty, or visitors on campus.
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Nope, you can't say what you think even if it isn't directed as a specific person or group.
 
Lplus said:
It is, that was my rather obscure way of saying so.


Nope, you can't say what you think even if it isn't directed as a specific person or group.
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Nitpick: Of course you can say what you think. But you must do so expecting to be officially sanctioned for it.
 
How to persuade someone to adopt preferred pronouns without coercion

Here follows a hypothetical scenario, which may or may not resemble a conversation from real life.

Alfa: Man it would be sweet if Sam Smith dated G-Flip.

Beto: You think so? I think she’s too hot for him these days.

Alfa: Whoa there, Beto! Pronouns, please!

Beto: LOL, wut.

Alfa: You have to use they/them for Sam & G, because they don’t see themselves as either men or women.

Beto: I do see them as a man and woman, though. In fact, I know which one would be at risk of being impregnated by the other one if they didn’t take prophylactic measures.

Alfa: I meant “man” and “woman” as gender identities, not as signifiers of sex.

Beto: Okay, but you could tell what I meant by “man” and “woman” though.

Alfa: Fine, but you have to use the pronouns that they would have you use.

Beto: Why? They aren’t even here.​

I'm not going to answer Beto's question here, because that would put me at risk of strawpersoning the argument in favor of using pronouns to signify gender identity rather than sexual physiology. Suffice to say that Beto is listening with an open mind, and might well be persuadable.

p.s. Dunno whether to post this in the main trans thread or here in the pronoun thread. I’ll try it here first and if it gets bitbucketed then I’ll repost over there.
 
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