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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

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The Atheist said:
Seriously, because I think you're quite a reasonable bloke - do you think anything is actually served by quoting far outlier cases at this point?

It's established that some men will commit acts of extreme violence and cowardly hide behind the facade of transgenderism, but there are also unquestionably huge numbers of people who identify as trans and don't abuse the privilege [?] of women's rights they inherit with their gender change.

After 6 jillion posts in these threads, it's disappointing that an allegedly intelligent group of people discussing the subject has only got further and further from the middle ground as the years have passed. It does neatly mirror the wider backlash against the entire LGBT spectrum, though.
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Albert park was a game changer for me realising the politicians and media are complicit in endangering children. Witness the immigration minister falling for the disinformation people like Tova O' Brien lapped up about neo nazis.
I have seen nothing but more proof as I contemplate scores of hours of talking heads.
This should be seen as a completely different subject to empathising with adults and their modified lives. I have seen that side too with my brother.
Every day that goes by makes walking the project back more problematic with sunk costs proliferating.
New Zealand has one gender clinic with 65 of 100 children on puberty blockers while the UK has effectively banned their use. Puberty blockers were designed to chemically sterilize offenders as a key function. Therefore this Dame Sue Bagshaw is sterilizing the nation's children with governmental support.

Children are the collateral damage in this endeavour to turn men into women and it is outside my ability any more to see this as anything but a social catastrophe.
 
The Atheist said:
Seriously, because I think you're quite a reasonable bloke - do you think anything is actually served by quoting far outlier cases at this point?
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Leading civil rights group argues that prisoners deserve gender-affirming care as a matter of law; this strikes me as perfectly inbounds as a topic.


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Matthew Best said:
Yes. The point is to indicate how stupid and dangerous "self ID" is as a concept.
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I don't see how it does that. How is it "dangerous" to afford healthcare to a prisoner on death row?

What you're doing here is intimating that bad people don't deserve legal protection. That's a very common and very toxic attitude. And it's always been the ACLU's task to combat it.
 
OK

mumblethrax said:
How is it "dangerous" to afford healthcare to a prisoner on death row?
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This is begging the question. In what sense is it "healthcare" to move a rapist to a woman's prison on his say-so?

What you're doing here is intimating that bad people don't deserve legal protection.
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No, that's exactly what you're doing. You're suggesting that just because women are in prison, and are thus "bad people", they don't deserve legal protection.
 
Matthew Best said:
This is begging the question. In what sense is it "healthcare" to move a rapist to a woman's prison on his say-so?
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There's absolutely nothing in the ACLU's post to indicate this is what they're referring to.

No, that's exactly what you're doing. You're suggesting that just because women are in prison, and are thus "bad people", they don't deserve legal protection.
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2/10.
 
mumblethrax said:
There's absolutely nothing in the ACLU's post to indicate this is what they're referring to.
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If he's really a woman, then he belongs on a women's prison, no? That's just following the logic through to its obvious conclusion.

I don't know if he was genuine in his desire to transition or not, but self-ID as a policy makes that knowledge irrelevant anyway, so it doesn't matter.
 
Matthew Best said:
If he's really a woman, then he belongs on a women's prison, no?
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If the state can show that they have a rational basis in keeping him out of a women's prison, then no, he would not belong there.

If he presents a grave risk to female prisoners, it will not be difficult to do that.

That's just following the logic through to its obvious conclusion.
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Via the idea that "self-id" entails capitulation to all demands from trans people. I think the problem is in there, somewhere.

I don't know if he was genuine in his desire to transition or not, but self-ID as a policy makes that knowledge irrelevant anyway, so it doesn't matter.
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If he actually had been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, would it be any better if he got himself transferred to a women's prison?
 
mumblethrax said:
Via the idea that "self-id" entails capitulation to all demands from trans people. I think the problem is in there, somewhere.
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Yes I think you may have something there.

If he actually had been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, would it be any better if he got himself transferred to a women's prison?
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Being diagnosed with gender dysphoria is unnecessary, didn't you know?
 
Matthew Best said:
Yes I think you may have something there.
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So you think Florida in 2023 is inclined to capitulate to all demands from trans people? Ron DeSantis is a captured agent?

Being diagnosed with gender dysphoria is unnecessary, didn't you know?
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I didn't know. Frankly, I have no idea what the state of law is in Florida surrounding a trans prisoner's interest in being transferred to a women's prison.

I'm guessing you don't, either.

In any case, how would Owen even get a diagnosis? The denial of the healthcare necessary for that to happen would make it pretty difficult.
 
mumblethrax said:
So you think Florida in 2023 is inclined to capitulate to all demands from trans people? Ron DeSantis is a captured agent?
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2/10.

I didn't know. Frankly, I have no idea what the state of law is in Florida surrounding a trans prisoner's interest in being transferred to a women's prison.
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I'm not talking about the state of law in Florida. I'm talking about what you need to be considered transgender. Dysphoria is not necessary.

Being transgender is not considered a medical condition, so why would you need a "diagnosis"?
 
Matthew Best said:
2/10
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Points for originality, but are you not intimating that capitulation is likely? Really don't think that's going to happen, particularly not in this case. (I mean, definitely not in this case. He's dead.)

I'm not talking about the state of law in Florida. I'm talking about what you need to be considered transgender. Dysphoria is not necessary.
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Florida is going to have specific rules about how to treat transgender prisoners, including how to identify them.

Being transgender is not considered a medical condition, so why would you need a "diagnosis"?
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You would need a diagnosis if the state of Florida requires one in order for a prisoner to be considered transgender.

Given that Florida was denying Owen trans healthcare altogether (I think? Not actually clear on what the specific complaint is), they were either acting illegally or had some reason not to.
 
Matthew Best said:
What part of

are you having trouble with?
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The part where you're suggesting the self-id means everyone has to completely capitulate to every demand from a trans prisoner, without any legal basis (which is the only way this could possibly happen).
 
Matthew Best said:
What do you think "self-ID" means when trans rights activists say it?
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It means they are advocating for a legal policy that permits them to be legally treated as women without diagnosis.

I've highlighted some important words.
 
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