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Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

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Ambiguous does, in fact, mean unclear (among other things), but I don't agree that the ambiguity can be clarified in every instance.

A DNA test will clarify it for you. It will definitively reveal if the individual is male or female, even in cases where that individual has Klinefelter syndrome or Ambiguous genitalia or has had DSD

So it's not the case that there are no "in-between sexes" in any species (depending, of course, on what you mean by "in-between sexes").

Exactly who has made this claim? Both Emily and I have specifically been talking about mammals and birds (well, at least we were before you started moving the goalposts).
 
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Have you not been reading the thread at all?

Yes, I have. Classification has nothing to do with graphing anything in this connection

Why would there need to be? It's the nature of the beast. Do you think an animal can be a reptile and a mammal at the same time?

Yup, I know one that is

"The duck-billed platypus is a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal found in Tasmania and Australia. It is a connection between reptiles and mammals, as it possesses both reptilian and mammalian characteristics."

GRAPH THAT!!!

You're putting things into categories in different domains.

Nope, I'm putting them in domains and subdomains


This could only possibly be true is if you think refuting a tenet of your dogma means I am supporting the tenets of the counter-dogma. Which is the kind of Manichaean thinking that dogmatism tends to produce. You're either one of us or you're one of them.

Post modernist clap-trap!


It is not an ad hominem to note that you are being dishonest. Particularly when it's so flagrant that there's no other way to describe it.

Well, you you going to be insulting, you could at least be honest about it.
 
A DNA test will clarify it for you. It will definitively reveal if the individual is male or female, even in cases where that individual has Klinefelter syndrome or Ambiguous genitalia or has had DSD.
I respectfully disagree that this approach will always clarify the situation.

Individuals with PAIS or CAIS are genetically male but they are not phenotypically male and not entirely phenotypically female either. Instead, their bodies followed one developmental pathway for some characteristics, the other developmental pathway for others, and failed to develop functional ovaries or testes.

Of course, we should always ask ourselves why we are sorting people into one bin or another. If the answer is about locker rooms or weightlifting leagues or Korean spas, then external body habitus is probably what matters most. If the answer is about cryopreserving cell cultures for gene lines, then maybe your approach is best.

Even though "sex" as a reproductive process is clearly binary, with only two types of gametes, that does not imply that nature is somehow obliged to make it easy or even possible for us to clearly sort every individual human being into either male or female categories. Some people will produce no gametes and develop a mix of traits, and that's fine. No need to panic, just develop ad hoc policies as needed for those special cases, which will be few and far between.
 
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This podcast shows that at the population level America has a catastrophe in gender care.

https://youtu.be/YhLA02Dtupc

Please avoid, it is credible and frightening.
New Zealand is a leader in sterilizing, that is the demographic of worried well middle class.
 
From your link:


I will say that I don't think Coyne is always very clear on this topic.

In my view, the blips in between are incorrectly plotted.
A (true) hermaphrodite, for example, is both male and female and would be counted in both "bins." There really isn't a continuum between sexes, or an in-between bin you could put them in ("both" is not a position on an axis between male and female).

They both recognize that intersex conditions exist, but they still contend that sex is binary.

Look at it this way:
"Are you male?" and "Are you Female?" are discrete questions that are answered independantly. Usually, one is yes and the other no, but they can both be "yes." (Or no.)

There is no "degree of maleness" or "degree of femaleness." Each question is it's own binary.

Gender and sex-linked characteristics, however, are not binary. You can, by some set of standards, chart how masculine or feminine someone is, breast size, beard thickness, And you can plot these for males and females. but you would do so as different plot lines as male/female can't be placed on a numerical axis. (x axis beard density, y axis n. One series for male, one series for female.) Note that beard density does not make you more or less male and breast size does not make you more or less female.

Plotting male/female on an x axis and n on a y axis doesn't make sense unless you have some criteria for "degree of maleness/femaleness" which doesn't exist. You could do a bar chart, and put a bin for "both" and "neither," but these are categorical bins, not numerical. Also, bear in mind that you would not actually have a "male" bin or a "female" bin. Instead you would have a "only male" bin and "only female."

But none of this has anything to do with policy decisions or how people should be treated.
 
But we can surely say that C can be classified neither as A nor B. That is, it's not quite an apple, and not quite a banana.
Yes, and we are now at the distinction between defining sex and diagnosing sex. If we want to diagnose C, C is clearly different than A or B. But if we want to understand what sex is, distinct from how it appears in any individual, we have A and B.
I would say there are only two sexes in the abstract (or maybe only two gametes, more concretely),
"In the abstract" I take to mean "distinct from any individual."
but it's clear that there are unclassifiable individuals (which can form a distinct category, if not a new sex).
Which equals individuals who may be difficult to diagnose (using my previous terminology, no reason to prefer it, I"m just going for consistency).
I would also say there's no real problem in understanding sex in individuals as a statistical clustering of reproductive phenotypes, at which point a bimodal distribution will emerge.
It's been said before, but the sex binary ultimately rests on the fact that there are only ever two different types of gametes - the small motile ones and the large, immobile ones.
 
Even though "sex" as a reproductive process is clearly binary, with only two types of gametes, that does not imply that nature is somehow obliged to make it easy or even possible for us to clearly sort every individual human being into either male or female categories. Some people will produce no gametes and develop a mix of traits, and that's fine. No need to panic, just develop ad hoc policies as needed for those special cases, which will be few and far between.
:thumbsup:
 
Can we talk about Bud Light?

Came across this tweet recently from Abigail Shrier:
https://twitter.com/AbigailShrier/status/1669570744953765889

Basically I'm trying to understand what has (other) Bud Light drinkers knickers in a twist here. Why would Shrier characterize an ephemeral attempt to market to the progressive TikTok crowd as "giving the finger" to their existing customer base? Does the PR stunt with Mulvaney imply anything about, well, anything?
 
Came across this tweet recently from Abigail Shrier:
https://twitter.com/AbigailShrier/status/1669570744953765889

Basically I'm trying to understand what has (other) Bud Light drinkers knickers in a twist here. Why would Shrier characterize an ephemeral attempt to market to the progressive TikTok crowd as "giving the finger" to their existing customer base? Does the PR stunt with Mulvaney imply anything about, well, anything?

Yes. Obviously. It implies not just tolerance for Mulvaney's actions and views, but endorsement of them.
 
Yes. Obviously. It implies not just tolerance for Mulvaney's actions and views, but endorsement of them.
Does it? I'd always assumed that celebrity endorsements didn't imply anything other than "celebrity X likes product Y," or at least is willing to pretend to enjoy it on camera.

Let's say InBev does endorse Mulvaney in her choice to transition as an adult, though.

So what?
 
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Came across this tweet recently from Abigail Shrier:
https://twitter.com/AbigailShrier/status/1669570744953765889

Basically I'm trying to understand what has (other) Bud Light drinkers knickers in a twist here. Why would Shrier characterize an ephemeral attempt to market to the progressive TikTok crowd as "giving the finger" to their existing customer base? Does the PR stunt with Mulvaney imply anything about, well, anything?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/butthurt
 
Came across this tweet recently from Abigail Shrier:
https://twitter.com/AbigailShrier/status/1669570744953765889

Basically I'm trying to understand what has (other) Bud Light drinkers knickers in a twist here. Why would Shrier characterize an ephemeral attempt to market to the progressive TikTok crowd as "giving the finger" to their existing customer base? Does the PR stunt with Mulvaney imply anything about, well, anything?

Shrier is begging the question about whether the Mulvaney PR stunt was really that provocative at all. These beer companies are pretty open handed when it comes to doing promotions with pretty much any target demographic they think they can sell to. The Mulvaney promotion was just one of many that they do and not particularly high profile.

Reactionaries were looking for a posterchild for their current intense transphobic rage and found one, Bud Light just had bad luck. If anything, the general homophobic campaigns against Target or any other corporation doing generic "Pride" campaigns that shortly followed proves the point. They have already further moved the goalposts to trigger their outrage from being anti-trans to being against any general outward expression of supporting queer rights.

A common theme for these aggrieved reactionaries is that they seek out content to be upset about as crybully authoritarians are want to do. There's really no reason to accept their claims about being provoked or attacked at face value when it's abundantly clear they are looking for reasons to act the way they do.

WaPo's point about bud light is not really that spectacular. American macro beer has been in decline for a long time and their consumer base has been aging. There's plenty of reporting about this from years before the recent transphobic freakouts. Younger drinkers are increasingly preferring craft beer or non-beer drinks like seltzers or alcopops. The Mulvaney promo was probably one many attempts to try to advertise light beer to a younger audience.

Not that this is a huge crisis. The alcohol mega corporations have significant non-beer operations to capture this change in preference. Odds are very good that these people ditching Bud Light are drinking product, including several nearly identical light American lagers, made by the InBev monster.
 
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Reactionaries were looking for a posterchild for their current intense transphobic rage and found one, Bud Light just had bad luck.
If one quarter to one third of your macrobrew fan base happen to be aggrieved reactionaries filled with intense transphobic rage, that strikes me as something a bit worse than bad luck.

Here's a toast to all the Bud Light enjoyers who aren't worried about Dylan living her best life:
153374b51547559f8d5d85c74c3bf686.jpg
 
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Does it? I'd always assumed that celebrity endorsements didn't imply anything other than "celebrity X likes product Y," or at least is willing to pretend to enjoy it on camera.

Actors are basically blank slates. Absent scandals, we associate them with the entertainment they work in, and little more. But Mulvaney isn't an actor. Mulvaney is an activist. So Bud Light is implicitly endorsing that activism.

Let's say InBev does endorse Mulvaney in her choice to transition as an adult, though.

So what?

Mulvaney isn't just somebody who transitioned as an adult. Look up some of his videos on "days of girlhood" or whatever the **** he called it, and it's really hard to not come away with the impression that he's doing "womanface", a really sexist caricature of being female. It's ******* creepy and offensive. Bud Light wouldn't be getting the same backlash if they had done this with Caitlin Jenner.
 
A DNA test will clarify it for you. It will definitively reveal if the individual is male or female, even in cases where that individual has Klinefelter syndrome or Ambiguous genitalia or has had DSD
No, a DNA test will not always clarify. Often it will just muddy the water. And if you understand what chimerism is, you understand why this won't clarify anything.

Exactly who has made this claim? Both Emily and I have specifically been talking about mammals and birds (well, at least we were before you started moving the goalposts).
Emily's Cat. See above.

Yes, I have. Classification has nothing to do with graphing anything in this connection
The entire conversation is about whether it's possible to plot sex as a bimodal distribution.

Yup, I know one that is
"The duck-billed platypus is a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal found in Tasmania and Australia. It is a connection between reptiles and mammals, as it possesses both reptilian and mammalian characteristics."
I appreciate your gameness in walking into this, but the platypus is not a reptile. It's a mammal. We all share characteristics with reptiles, by virtue of the fact that we all descend from them. That doesn't make us reptiles.

Nope, I'm putting them in domains and subdomains
This does not particularly make sense, but it has no bearing on whether you can treat humans as male and female at the same time.

Post modernist clap-trap!
I can't say I'm surprised that you regard basic reasoning to be clap-trap, but it is pretty funny that you are accusing me of post-modernism immediately after (and presumably because) I pointed out your us-or-them mindset.

Well, you you going to be insulting, you could at least be honest about it.
Again--calling your dishonesty dishonest is not an ad hominem, nor is it me insulting you (if I were to insult you, I'd be more creative than this). It's you being insulted by a description of a facially dishonest imputation of beliefs onto me that you have absolutely no reason to suppose I have. That's just a factual account of what happened. That it hurts your feelings to have this pointed out does not change the reality of the situation.
 
Not a single mention of "exclusive categories" there. The word "or" in Emily's post is not exclusive in this context.

FYI - I do mean it as an exclusive OR.

Looking at a specific individual and saying "I can't decide if they're male or female" doesn't mean that they're both. There is no "both sex" category. There is male, and there is female. The two are exclusive categories.

And that's my point here: Being uncertain about which category a person belongs to does NOT support the invention of a third category of "in between". There is no in between.

My inability to accurately discern a person's sex doesn't mean that they're a mefale stuck in the middle.

My inability to figure out whether a complex equation evaluates to a real or an imaginary number does not in any way imply that the equation evaluates to an imagirealinary number that is somewhere in between those two discrete number classes. All it means is that I don't know.
 
Exactly who has made this claim? Both Emily and I have specifically been talking about mammals and birds (well, at least we were before you started moving the goalposts).

Yeah, well, in one of my many posts I failed to specify mammals and birds, and the overwhelming majority of vertebrates... therefore all of the several dozen (hundreds?) of posts I've ever made where I did specify are negated.
 
"The duck-billed platypus is a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal found in Tasmania and Australia. It is a connection between reptiles and mammals, as it possesses both reptilian and mammalian characteristics."

Nope nope nope.

The duck billed platypus has both mammalian and reptilian characteristics. But it is incontrovertibly classed as a mammal.

Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: MammaliaOrder: Monotremata
Family: Ornithorhynchidae
Genus: Ornithorhynchus
Species: O. anatinus
 
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