Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[mumblethrax]

Statistical confidence of... what exactly? How do you measure maleness of femaleness?

Additionally, you are directly acknowledging that you have two discrete classes in your description. You're looking at a mixed distribution that includes two discrete classes in the population sample. Not one population with two means; two populations.

If you're going to respond to every person in the thread, why not read my responses to this objection, already raised by others.

Sex is generally observable, as external genitalia are in agreement with sex in about 99.98% of cases.

You're substituting the results of sexual determination for sex, the thing you're arguing we can't do.

Every individual in the class mammalia can be classified as male or female.

No, they can't.

Sexual-linked characteristics can be understood to be bimodal, if you don't separate your population by sex.

I've already explained how to produce a bimodal distribution without separating the population by sex. Trying to find a bimodal distribution after separating by sex doesn't really make sense.

 

[Aber]

We needs laws that a trans-identified man has the right to have babies.

Loretta's law...

 

[Ziggurat]

I'd say that a parent would be justified in getting pretty angry if a nutter started loudly and publicly accusing their daughter of being a male and trying to stop her from competing in a race.

Everyone here agrees. The problem is, that's her version of events, not his. We don't know the real version.

 

[Darat]

Was thinking about the bigger picture in the UK and certainly with our current government the protest against "self-id" has been successful. I'd have said a few years ago that we were on a path that was leading to self-id, I can't see that now happening.

Do people have the same objections to (for example) toilet usage by someone who has got a valid GRC in the UK?

To let you know what that entails:

• you’re aged 18 or over
• you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria in the UK
• you’ve been living in your affirmed gender for at least 2 years
• you intend to live in this gender for the rest of your life

When I first saw the requirements, I was concerned about someone having to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (for the reasons often discussed this thread that not all trans folk have gender dysphoria) to gain a GRC. But that is covered as well.

If you do not have a gender dysphoria diagnosis
You might still be able to apply, but only if you meet all of the following requirements:​

• you currently live in England, Wales or Scotland
• you were in a marriage or a civil partnership on 10 December 2014 and living in England or Wales, or on 15 December 2014 and living in Scotland
• you had been living in your affirmed gender for at least 6 years before those dates, and you have evidence of that
• you have had gender affirmation surgery

 

[smartcooky]

Every individual in the class mammalia can be classified as male or female.

No, they can't.

Cite an example of an individual in the class mammalia that in the natural course of events, cannot be classed as either being of male sex or female sex, according to the accepted scientific/biological definition of the sexes

1. The female sex, capable of producing large gametes (ovules)

2. The male sex, capable of producing small gametes (spermatozoa)

In other words, an example of a mammal that is a third biological sex.

Note: Wise-arse answers quoting edge cases such as birth defects where an individual is born without reproductive organs will not be accepted as valid answers.

 

[lionking]

Cite an example of an individual in the class mammalia that is not male AND not female, i.e. a mammal that, in the natural course of events, cannot be classed as either being of male sex or female sex, according to the accepted scientific/biological definition of the sexes

1. The female sex, capable of producing large gametes (ovules)

2. The male sex, capable of producing small gametes (spermatozoa)

In other words, an example of a mammal that is a third biological sex.

Note: Wise-arse answers quoting edge cases such as birth defects where an individual is born without reproductive organs will not be accepted as valid answers.

This will be ignored.

I’m simply staggered that some people in this thread deny this fundamental biological reality. It actually has nothing at all to do gender identity. People have the right to identify as any gender they wish. It is up to government to ensure that women’s rights and safety are not compromised as a result. This is not always happening due to the success of TRAs and the cowardice of some politicians.

Humans cannot change sex. Full ******* stop.

 

[Samson]

Was thinking about the bigger picture in the UK and certainly with our current government the protest against "self-id" has been successful. I'd have said a few years ago that we were on a path that was leading to self-id, I can't see that now happening.

Do people have the same objections to (for example) toilet usage by someone who has got a valid GRC in the UK?

To let you know what that entails:

• you’re aged 18 or over
• you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria in the UK
• you’ve been living in your affirmed gender for at least 2 years
• you intend to live in this gender for the rest of your life

When I first saw the requirements, I was concerned about someone having to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (for the reasons often discussed this thread that not all trans folk have gender dysphoria) to gain a GRC. But that is covered as well.

If you do not have a gender dysphoria diagnosis
You might still be able to apply, but only if you meet all of the following requirements:​

• you currently live in England, Wales or Scotland
• you were in a marriage or a civil partnership on 10 December 2014 and living in England or Wales, or on 15 December 2014 and living in Scotland
• you had been living in your affirmed gender for at least 6 years before those dates, and you have evidence of that
• you have had gender affirmation surgery

It is new law today in New Zealand. I bet I could ask 20 random people, not one would realise.


https://www.justice.govt.nz/family/...ocess for,birth certificate should be changed.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Was thinking about the bigger picture in the UK and certainly with our current government the protest against "self-id" has been successful. I'd have said a few years ago that we were on a path that was leading to self-id, I can't see that now happening.

Do people have the same objections to (for example) toilet usage by someone who has got a valid GRC in the UK?

To let you know what that entails:

• you’re aged 18 or over
• you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria in the UK
• you’ve been living in your affirmed gender for at least 2 years
• you intend to live in this gender for the rest of your life

When I first saw the requirements, I was concerned about someone having to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (for the reasons often discussed this thread that not all trans folk have gender dysphoria) to gain a GRC. But that is covered as well.

If you do not have a gender dysphoria diagnosis
You might still be able to apply, but only if you meet all of the following requirements:​

• you currently live in England, Wales or Scotland
• you were in a marriage or a civil partnership on 10 December 2014 and living in England or Wales, or on 15 December 2014 and living in Scotland
• you had been living in your affirmed gender for at least 6 years before those dates, and you have evidence of that
• you have had gender affirmation surgery

The problem with conditioning recognition on receiving a diagnosis or surgery is that the UK is notorious for not having this medical care available in any kind of reasonable timeframe, and I would assume the massively transphobic groundswell occurring in UK politics would preclude this problem from being addressed. The wait time to start the waiting time is quite long.

[*]you were in a marriage or a civil partnership on 10 December 2014 and living in England or Wales, or on 15 December 2014 and living in Scotland

I have to admit I don't understand this part. Why exactly is being married before 2014 important? Doesn't this preclude huge swaths of people who otherwise might qualify but were not married in 2014?

 

[smartcooky]

This will be ignored.
I’m simply staggered that some people in this thread deny this fundamental biological reality. It actually has nothing at all to do gender identity. People have the right to identify as any gender they wish. It is up to government to ensure that women’s rights and safety are not compromised as a result. This is not always happening due to the success of TRAs and the cowardice of some politicians.

Of course it will. They have no answer, so they are left only two courses of action

1. Pretend the question doesn't exist.
2. Hand-wave, obfuscate, dodge, flail and avoid answering.

Humans cannot change sex. Full ******* stop.

 

[Manger Douse]

The problem with conditioning recognition on receiving a diagnosis or surgery is that the UK is notorious for not having this medical care available in any kind of reasonable timeframe,

This is an argument for increasing NHS funding for transgender care, not for making all previously female spaces unisex

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is an argument for increasing NHS funding for transgender care, not for making all previously female spaces unisex

It's been a long standing complaint and explicit demand, so it's not like people haven't tried.

Given the one-two punch of the UK going through both crippling austerity and intense reactionary backlash to trans people (and generally), I doubt that further funding of these services are realistically on offer.

 

[Darat]

The problem with conditioning recognition on receiving a diagnosis or surgery is that the UK is notorious for not having this medical care available in any kind of reasonable timeframe, and I would assume the massively transphobic groundswell occurring in UK politics would preclude this problem from being addressed. The wait time to start the waiting time is quite long.

Ther doesn't need to be any diagnosis nor surgery.

I have to admit I don't understand this part. Why exactly is being married before 2014 important? Doesn't this preclude huge swaths of people who otherwise might qualify but were not married in 2014?

I presume that will be some weird technical legal issue due to changing legislation.

 

[Manger Douse]

It's been a long standing complaint and explicit demand, so it's not like people haven't tried.

Given the one-two punch of the UK going through both crippling austerity and intense reactionary backlash to trans people (and generally), I doubt that further funding of these services are realistically on offer.

You're of the position that gender dysphoria is an essential trait to being transgender? That Eg: only males with a diagnosis should be allowed to to access women's safe spaces? If not then this talk about NHS wait times is a red herring

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You're of the position that gender dysphoria is an essential trait to being transgender? That Eg: only males with a diagnosis should be allowed to to access women's safe spaces? If not then this talk about NHS wait times is a red herring

No, but it's worth pointing out that even under its own terms the UK law was obviously bad faith.

If you set up a process to receive recognition, but make it practically impossible to initiate that process in any kind of reasonable timeframe, it's more pretext than actual policy.

This speaks to the seriousness of the UK in dealing with these people's complaints about civil rights with any sincerity. Laundering a denial by offering a solution that is impossible to navigate because of red tape.

Animus as official policy is anything but a red herring, it's the core of the issue.

 

[Manger Douse]

No, but it's worth pointing out that even under its own terms the UK law was obviously bad faith.

If you set up a process to receive recognition, but make it practically impossible to initiate that process in any kind of reasonable timeframe, it's more pretext than actual policy.

This speaks to the seriousness of the UK in dealing with these people's complaints about civil rights with any sincerity. Laundering a denial by offering a solution that is impossible to navigate because of red tape.

All this talk about NHS waiting times was a red herring - people could be instantly and correctly diagnosed and you would still be pushing for self-id

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ther doesn't need to be any diagnosis nor surgery.

Perhaps I'm not reading your post right then. The first criteria requires a dysphoria diagnosis (from a NHS facility no less) and 2 years waiting.

The second criteria requires gender affirming surgery and 6 years waiting.

How is that not recognition that is hinged on receiving medical care that is notoriously in short supply in the UK? I suppose in the second criteria wealthier trans people could undergo the procedure overseas, but that's obviously not a solution for everyone.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

All this talk about NHS waiting times was a red herring - people could be instantly and correctly diagnosed and you would still be pushing for self-id

Perhaps, but it would probably be a less pressing issue. Certainly an improvement over the current situation.

 

[Darat]

No, but it's worth pointing out that even under its own terms the UK law was obviously bad faith. If you set up a process to receive recognition, but make it practically impossible to initiate that process in any kind of reasonable timeframe, it's more pretext than actual policy.

This speaks to the seriousness of the UK in dealing with these people's complaints about civil rights with any sincerity. Laundering a denial by offering a solution that is impossible to navigate because of red tape.

Animus as official policy is anything but a red herring, it's the core of the issue.

No it doesn't in the slightest.

The issue with NHS funding are not linked the relevant legislation, NHS under funding is a policy of only one of the parties in the UK.

Plus as I said there does not need to be any surgery, treatments nor diagnosis.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Plus as I said there does not need to be any surgery, treatments nor diagnosis.

I know you said that, but I don't understand how you come to that conclusion based on what you posted. What am I missing?

No it doesn't in the slightest.

The issue with NHS funding are not linked the relevant legislation, NHS under funding is a policy of only one of the parties in the UK.

It's bad faith to condition a civil right on a process that everyone knows is not meaningfully available. If the NHS isn't funded enough to provide this care, then it should not be made a necessary precondition to receiving recognition until such time that problem is resolved.

 

[Manger Douse]

I know you said that, but I don't understand how you come to that conclusion based on what you posted. What am I missing?



It's bad faith to condition a civil right on a process that everyone knows is not meaningfully available. If the NHS isn't funded enough to provide this care, then it should not be made a necessary precondition to receiving recognition until such time that problem is resolved.

Being allowed to pick which sports categories you get to play in isn't a right its a privalge