Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[Thermal]

We're talking about prepubescent children anyway. Outside of any socially coded gender indicators, boys and girls this age pretty much look the same. A lot of sports don't even bother with sex segregated leagues for kids these age.

Yeah, I get that. If they were doing sex segregated events (in the schools I went to, boys had all the records so I kind of support girls having an opportunity to shine too), then maybe different colored shirts would make it clearer and stave off the question.

My point was that the mother went out of her way to describe the girls hair cut as a pixie, which is a common girly cut, making it seem more outlandish to question her sex. It was not remotely a pixie cut by any stretch, and that leads me to question how much she might be spinning ye olde narrative around. Fib once and the eyes narrow, if you catch my drift.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yeah, I get that. If they were doing sex segregated events (in the schools I went to, boys had all the records so I kind of support girls having an opportunity to shine too), then maybe different colored shirts would make it clearer and stave off the question.

My point was that the mother went out of her way to describe the girls hair cut as a pixie, which is a common girly cut, making it seem more outlandish to question her sex. It was not remotely a pixie cut by any stretch, and that leads me to question how much she might be spinning ye olde narrative around. Fib once and the eyes narrow, if you catch my drift.

The kids hair is longer than the reference photos used on the "pixie cut" wikipedia page. If anything, it's a bit too long to be a textbook pixie cut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixie_cut

I don't understand your suspicion at all.

 

[Ziggurat]

There's great reason to draw as much attention to weirdo perverts actually.

You keep calling him a pervert, but why? Because he thought a girl might be a boy? Because he wanted to know whether the game was co-ed? What exactly is perverted about that?

It's good general advice to draw as many eyes as possible when dealing with antisocial freaks like this.

By being an antisocial freak?

Making a scene is usually the advice given to people to deal with aggressive and creepy strangers.

What's the evidence that he was aggressive? According to his version of events, he wasn't. Now it's entirely possible his version isn't correct, but you were stipulating that the mom's behavior as reported by him was still proper under the conditions that he described. And in his version, he wasn't aggressive.

I hope the Tesars are enjoying the attention they so desperately craved.

The only people we know wanted attention were the moms.

 

[Dismember]

There's great reason to draw as much attention to weirdo perverts actually.

But who’s the “pervert” here? The guy asking the official if it’s a co-ed event and saying it looks like a boy is competing against the girls? Or Heidi Starr, the mom, loudly asking if this guy wants to see her daughter naked? If Tesar’s telling the truth, it was Starr who escalated this and made it sexual.

It's good general advice to draw as many eyes as possible when dealing with antisocial freaks like this. Making a scene is usually the advice given to people to deal with aggressive and creepy strangers.

I hope the Tesars are enjoying the attention they so desperately craved.

And you’ll feel exactly the same way if it turns out *Starr* was the one who invoked genitalia and introduced the idea of someone seeing her daughter naked, and happily made this a big public spectacle, yes?

Right now I share Ziggurat’s view: no way to know for sure what happened, but for now the odds are good that neither one behaved particularly well.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

TG is deploying the "Moscow Ontology": Avoid contemplating unpleasant truths about oneself, by attributing them to one's enemies. Russia is ruled by a fascist dictatorship, so Moscow turns around and says Ukraine is the real "nazi" regime. Some trans-identifying people are manifestly sexual predators, so TRAs turn around and scream "pervert!" at anyone who dissents from their orthodoxy.

Come up for air man, the threads are bleeding together.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Transwoman wins elite women's mountain bike race by over 4 minutes; would have lost men's division by over an hour.

Kudos to the second-place rider, who was about as gracious as she could be:

"Rather than sharing my personal opinions about the UCI rule, I think it’s most important to recognize that all athletes, no matter how they identify, should have a space to compete and race. Additionally, underneath all helmets is a face and a person who deserves respect, dignity and a safe space to ride bikes."

“In the future, I feel a separate category is appropriate but event promoters are also learning what is best to preserve both female cycling while also creating an inclusive space for all to ride. These things take both time and grace to resolve."

Of course quite a few commenters noted that there is indeed a place for Austin to ride; it's called the men's division.

It was indeed gracious not mentioning what's under their cycling shorts.

 

[theprestige]

For those coming over from the "trans rights vs gay rights" thread (as well as the ones already active here): What rights do gay people have that trans people do not?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

For those coming over from the "trans rights vs gay rights" thread (as well as the ones already active here): What rights do gay people have that trans people do not?

Reminds me of the refrain for defending straight marriage from being denigrated by the gays. Of course, gay people had all the same right to marry an opposite sex partner that everyone else had, so their request for equality was in fact a request for special treatment.

 

[d4m10n]

For those coming over from the "trans rights vs gay rights" thread (as well as the ones already active here): What rights do gay people have that trans people do not?

Cisgender gay people (such as gay icon Gregory Efthimios Louganis) have the right to compete against people who share their gender identity at the highest level of sport, whereas transgender competitors such as Lia Thomas & Laurel Hubbard run the risk of being shut out of competition against people who identify as women (like themselves) and also happen to be biologically female from birth.

 

[Elaedith]

Cisgender gay people (such as gay icon Gregory Efthimios Louganis) have the right to compete against people who share their gender identity at the highest level of sport, whereas transgender competitors such as Lia Thomas & Laurel Hubbard run the risk of being shut out of competition against people who identify as women (like themselves) and also happen to be biologically female from birth.

Not to mention non-binary people and those with all of the other 100s of valid genders who currently have no sporting leagues where they can compete against those who share their gender identity.

 

[Trausti]

A lesbian can give birth. A trans-identified man cannot. We needs laws that a trans-identified man has the right to have babies.

 

[d4m10n]

Not to mention non-binary people and those with all of the other 100s of valid genders who currently have no sporting leagues where they can compete against those who share their gender identity.

Not to mention the lack of non-binary awards categories for folks forced into gendered categories like "best actress" on account of an accident of birth.

Sent from my Chrysler PT using Tapatalk

 

[lobosrul5]

Not to mention the lack of non-binary awards categories for folks forced into gendered categories like "best actress" on account of an accident of birth.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Hmm, acting is actually a competition in which categories based on gender rather than their biological sex makes absolutely perfect sense. There is also the fact that being male or female makes no difference in how well you can act (AFAIK), unlike sports.

 

[theprestige]

Reminds me of the refrain for defending straight marriage from being denigrated by the gays. Of course, gay people had all the same right to marry an opposite sex partner that everyone else had, so their request for equality was in fact a request for special treatment.

It does have that echo, doesn't it? That argument was disingenuous when it came to gay marriage. I don't think it's disingenuous when it comes to transcending sex segregation, because the two circumstances are not analogous.

Why do you believe that someone should have the right to transcend sex segregation in public policy, simply because they say they want to?

That's the big way in which the two circumstances are not analogous. Other than the right to not be discriminated against (which trans folks also already have), gay rights amount to being left alone to do whatever they want with whichever consenting adults they want. Gay sex? Live and let live. Public displays of gay affection? Live and let live. Effeminacy? Butchery? Stereotypical flamboyance? Live and let live. Gay marriage? Live and let live. None of these rights require any significant imposition on anyone else. Anyone offended by the idea of homosexuals holding hands in public is a homophobe.

But the trans rights we're talking about, the ones that aren't already settled matters of constitional law, all involve making significant impositions on other people. You should be well familiar with this refrain too, by now.

ETA: TRAs are losing some women as allies not because these women are transphobes - obviously, since they wouldn't have been trans allies to begin with if they were. No, they're losing allies because these trans-inclusionists are beginning to understand what's actually being imposed on them, what's actually being demanded of them. They're beginning to realize it's not "LGBT", we're all in this together. It's transwomen versus women, them versus us. Gay rights never had to burn that bridge, because they never had any interest in that further shore. Gay rights was never about sex denialism. Gay rights was never about dragging others down to prop themselves up. Transsexual rights are necessarily a zero-sum game with women's rights.

 

[Trausti]

Why do you believe that someone should have the right to transcend sex segregation in public policy, simply because they say they want to?

If someone can transcend sex, why not race or age? Rachel Dolezal was ahead of her time.

 

[d4m10n]

Hmm, acting is actually a competition in which categories based on gender rather than their biological sex makes absolutely perfect sense.

Someone born male who pulls off a womanly gender role is significantly more impressive, IMHO. Jaye Davidson^WP comes to mind here, and not for their work on Stargate.

 

[LondonJohn]

If someone can transcend sex, why not race or age? Rachel Dolezal was ahead of her time.

You're probably best off asking this question to one of the actual experts in this field. Because the aggregation of world's experts in this field - including every single medical organisation (including paediatric organisations) of any consequence - have deemed that transgender identity is a valid human condition (and not therefore a mental health disorder), while someone claiming to identify as a different age or a different race is suffering from some form of mental health disorder.

Maybe you can ask the experts why - given their aggregated hundreds of thousands of years of knowledge, education, skill and experience in this field - they now consider transgender identity to be a valid lived condition (in very much the same way as a similar cohort of the world's experts previously deemed that homosexuality was a valid lived condition rather than a mental health disorder)?

Personally, I'm inclined to trust the views, opinions and practices of the world's experts.... as opposed to trusting either my own view or the view of anyone else who's not an expert in the field. I trust that the tens of thousands of actual experts are many orders of magnitude more likely to get this difficult issue right than a bunch of uneducated, wholly-inexperienced and unskilled nobodies. Maybe that's just me - YMMV.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Hah, cool analysis.

Visited this thread after ages, following a nommed post, and landed on your post at random. And enjoyed reading your description of classical feminism vs radical feminism. Something I haven't studied, at all.

Yes, you're right about the car thing. Never thought about it, at all. Agreed, a female, particularly a petite one, may have difficulty with cars unless she gets it customized for full comfort. (So might a male dwarf, or for that matter a six foot seven basketball player; but both those are rarities, while petite women aren't. Cool point, well made.

(No clue how that ties in to the trans question. Not commenting on any larger argument you might be making here. Just wanted to express appreciation for this post, before moving on from this thread.)

Thank you!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ahh, the fine reactionary tradition of finding some college student handbook to get mad about.

Ahh, the privileged male perspective of hand-waving away females as nothing more than "non-men" who shouldn't worry their little heads about whether or not that deprives females of agency and full personhood. No big deal.

Those non-men should just shut up, sit down, and know their place, amirite?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm having trouble parsing the highlighted claim... their definition neither says nor implies what you are claiming it does.

Their definition doesn't even do lesbians the respect of referring to them as "women". Lesbians are defined as "non-men".

Here are some of the responses to that:
I'm a Woman. Don't Call me a Non-Man