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Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

Your quote did not specify repeated use or single use. It was fair to assume you meant to include the single use of a purposefully incorrect pronoun.

The hell it is. Theprestige asked if we "must, a priori" consider misgendering to be violent. I opine that no, we "must" not, and it can, but no ******* way did I ever say a single use would be in any circumstance.

You don't get to add meaning-changing qualifiers into my posts. Don't put words in my mouth.
 
Schrodinger's Cat. Since he didn't say, its fair to assume he meant both an isolated incident and repeated events.



;)
Unless the responder also felt it fair to assume only one type of example was proposed thinking the other too absurd to have been in question to begin with?
 
Yeah, fair enough. It's a long thread.

So let's put the call out: Does anybody in this thread believe that a single instance of using the wrong pronoun constitutes violence? Please say so if you do.

I wondered initially. But I am now quite convinced that a single instance, in almost all cases and as viewed by almost everyone, does not constitute violence, or harassment, or anything other than an honest mistake. I have a number of posters in this thread to thank for that.
 
You're plotting MULTIPLE variables on a single axis. That's exactly my point.
No, I'm plotting the statistical confidence resulting from a multivariate analysis on a single axis.

If that's your point, it's a bad one, as you seemed quite happy with multivariate sex differentiation a few posts ago.
 
Emotional "hurt" is not the same as physical trauma. At least not according to the law in most states.

Literally anything can cause emotional trauma. Silly to compare it to physical damage.
That's right. Physical damage generally heals after a while. Bruises go away, cuts heal over, fractures get repaired. Emotional damage can last for a lifetime. It is, indeed, silly to treat them the same way.
 
That's right. Physical damage generally heals after a while. Bruises go away, cuts heal over, fractures get repaired. Emotional damage can last for a lifetime. It is, indeed, silly to treat them the same way.

Eeeeeennnhh....sort of. Relatively trivial physical injuries (like a bruise) will heal soon enough, just like trivial emotional damage (like being called a name) will also fade.

Serious physical injuries (like brain damage or amputation) are not going anywhere, even with abundant time. But even serious emotional damage is often within the victim's ability to repair.
 
Eeeeeennnhh....sort of. Relatively trivial physical injuries (like a bruise) will heal soon enough, just like trivial emotional damage (like being called a name) will also fade.

Serious physical injuries (like brain damage or amputation) are not going anywhere, even with abundant time. But even serious emotional damage is often within the victim's ability to repair.
If by "repair" you mean "develop mitigation strategies and learn to live around it", sure.
 
If by "repair" you mean "develop mitigation strategies and learn to live around it", sure.

Well...yeah, much like an amputee learns to live around it. Am I to take it that you have no confidence at all in mental health professionals and treatments? Once any emotional.damage is done, it is permanent and incapacitating? I don't get where you are going with this.
 
Well this thread topic is certainly taking a sexy drift.

ETA: sexy posts have been removed, presumably to Penthouse Mathematical Forum
 
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Not the place to discuss mathematical intricacies, if you wish to discuss those please take it to either an ongoing thread where it will be on topic or start a new thread in the appropriate section
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
I mean, you could always address whether people should be fired for consistently using pronouns to denote sex rather than gender.
 
I mean, you could always address whether people should be fired for consistently using pronouns to denote sex rather than gender.

Feels like you’re leaving out some details. That doesn’t appear to be a part of the CU Boulder published guidelines.
 
That was a definition "according to the preeminent English dictionary" that you linked to!

Words can have more than one meaning - the use of violence to refer to topics, to words, to beliefs is as old as its use to mean physical actions. Both were in use back in the 14th century!

Your violence (1546) against the word violence is quite puzzling.

Words can absolutely have more than one meaning; words can have figurative meanings in addition to literal meanings.

The literal meaning of the word violence is one that includes physical action. All non-physical meanings of the word violence are figurative in nature.
 
Words can absolutely have more than one meaning; words can have figurative meanings in addition to literal meanings.

The literal meaning of the word violence is one that includes physical action. All non-physical meanings of the word violence are figurative in nature.

:rolleyes:

If it were metaphorical violence, does that, in any way, invalidate the CU Boulder statement or justify Hercules56's claims?
 
There are other forms of dangerous "speach". I referred to the legal concept of fighting words earlier. But words intended to incite violence are not themselves violence.

You might call someone a jerk to provoke a physical fight. Or you might call someone a jerk in the hope that the word itself will harm them in some way.

But can words do harm? Well, libel and slander can harm a person's reputation. And fraudulent claims can harm a person's economic interests.

And of course people can bring civil claims for "emotional harm" arising from being effectively libeled or slandered. I wouldn't be surprised if there are already such civil suits on the books, with judgements in the plaintiff's favor.

But is emotional harm akin to physical violence? I don't know.

Medicine understands impairment to the physical body. Bruises, lacerations, broken bones, damaged organs. We understand that the natural functioning of a healthy body can be disrupted by physical force. That a period of healing is necessary to restore the body's former functioning. In extreme cases, there can even be an irrevocable loss of some part of the body, or even the loss of the life that animates it. We all know how physical violence works.

Calling someone a jerk is not physical violence. Is it mental violence?

Medicine also understands impairment to the mind. I won't belabor the DSM here. I will say that it seems to me that a sustained program of verbal abuse could possibly provoke an emotional or mental breakdown, or even trigger some sort of psychosis. Especially if the victim sees no hope of escape, and has no way to relieve the pressure on their psyche.

Lock someone in a room, feed them slop, and roll a tape vilifying them for six hours out of every eight, and they'll go mad. That's a fairly contrived situation. A more "natural" occurrence is a spouse who subjects their partner to constant verbal and emotional abuse.

So at what point does being intentionally misgendered on a college campus pass from ordinary rudeness to actual violence resulting in actual harm? How would the harm be measured?

Hypothesis: If commonplace insults can be acts of violence, then we should expect to see many such allegations in the media, and many such cases in the court system. Bitch, ****, ******, faggot, scumbag, commie, pinko, fascist, nazi, hohol, vatnik, dickhead, limp-dick, fatso, Democrat, chud...

The human capacity for insult is as varied as it is endless. So where are the headlines proclaiming that Andy harmed Bob by calling him a faggot in the quad last week? Where are the court cases where Andy seeks to prove that Bob merits a criminal conviction, for the harm he allegedly caused by calling Andy a faggot?

So no, I don't think casually misgendering someone, even intentionally, even maliciously, can be considered an act of violence. A sustained program of verbal abuse might engender some civil liability for emotional distress, but that's still nothing like physical violence. A single punch thrown is already violence, is already a crime. A single epithet, intended to give offense, is not a crime. Certainly not a violent crime.

I think perhaps the worst thing about this guideline is that it encourages students to think of misgendering as a criminal offense, akin to actual violence. It encourages students to react as if criminally aggrieved, whenever someone says something rude to them.

I don't think this is a mindset we, as a society, should encourage. I don't think this is something we should normalize. It's no big deal as long as it's a fringe idea that has no real acceptance in popular culture. The authors of this guideline aren't trying to keep the idea fringe, though. If we want to keep this idea from becoming mainstream, we need to acknowledge acts - like the publication of this guideline - that tend to normalize it, and push back against them.

"It's no big deal," says the person who knows it's a bad idea but doesn't want to say so in plain language. "Why make a fuss?" And the answer to that is that it is a bad idea, and we make a fuss now to keep it marginalized, to stop it from becoming a big deal. We don't want to end up, ten years hence, in a society where someone can be brought up on criminal charges for misgendering.

Or do we? I suspect some of us do want exactly that. If so, I hope they will speak plainly about it.

This is an excellent post that seems to have been ignored in favor of quibbling about whether or not figurative meanings of words should be treated as if they're exactly the same as literal meanings of words as long as it gets the arguer what they want and all reason be damned.
 

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