Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[LondonJohn]

Sigh, I see the snowflakery has even spread to the Justice Department. Now ridiculing someone is "violence".

And here we see in black and white the failure of the anti-trans "argument" (and its associated dogged determination to refuse to use pronouns congruent with the person's gender, on request) for what it really is:

Denounce every entity which disagrees with you - no matter how eminent, expert, expertly-advised or important - as having been "captured" by the "woke movement" (including, of course, that all-powerful transgender lobby... )

 

[Hercules56]

And here we see in black and white the failure of the anti-trans "argument" (and its associated dogged determination to refuse to use pronouns congruent with the person's gender, on request) for what it really is:

Denounce every entity which disagrees with you - no matter how eminent, expert, expertly-advised or important - as having been "captured" by the "woke movement" (including, of course, that all-powerful transgender lobby... )

The Department of Justice should stick to issues of criminality, and leave sociology and psychology to the actual experts.

 

[Ziggurat]

By your "argument", someone claiming the identity of an Egyptian Pharaoh should not be viewed as suffering from a mental health disorder, on the basis that "there is no such DSM-V diagnosis".

Well, yes. That and the fact that if that's the full extent of it, then it's not causing distress or impairment either. If a condition isn't causing stress or impairment, then it's not a disorder.

Similarly with being trans absent gender dysphoria. Sure, that's not a disorder even though gender dysphoria is. But you've never presented any argument for why someone who identifies as trans but doesn't suffer gender dysphoria needs any sort of accommodation. And to tie this back to the thread topic, that includes having people use pronouns that don't match their biological sex.

 

[LondonJohn]

You will be disappointed here. The worst people are elsewhere.

Ah but see: the problem arises when the worst people on the internet have already convinced themselves (and their fellow travellers, reciprocally) that they are among the finest the internet has to offer.

 

[LondonJohn]

OMG A PUNCTUATION ERROR! The whole thing is trash, toss it out. Obviously bad work.

Looks like you're gonna need a bigger bale of straw.

 

[LondonJohn]

Stop making references to the DSM 5, you have repeatedly demonstrated an inability to understand it.

LOL riiiiight.

So, pray tell me: in what way do I either fail to understand it or misrepresent it?


*dusts off popcorn maker and plugs in*

 

[LondonJohn]

Are you under the impression that domestic violence against females is only words, never physical? Do you think that abused females are only being called names?

What on earth do you think you're arguing here? Because it's coming across as if you're saying that if we don't accept the claim that non-preferred pronouns are violence, then we're also refusing to accept that many females are physically abused by their domestic partners.

May I recommend one of the following courses?

https://www2.anokaramsey.edu/course-descriptions/Default?subj=READ

 

[Thermal]

Can we all agree that using the wrong pronoun to describe a transgender person, should never be treated as an assault equal to physical violence?

Pretty much. Although since no one has suggested it is on the table but you, I'm not sure who you are looking for common ground with?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No. If it is informed by cultural ideas about things like typical dress, hairstyle, makeup, etc. for men and women at all, then it's culturally-laden. That's what 'culturally-laden' means.

Serious question: If a male grows out their hair, puts on make-up, and wears a dress, do you actually find yourself convinced that they are genuinely female?

 

[Upchurch]

Are you under the impression that domestic violence against females is only words, never physical? Do you think that abused females are only being called names?

What on earth do you think you're arguing here? Because it's coming across as if you're saying that if we don't accept the claim that non-preferred pronouns are violence, then we're also refusing to accept that many females are physically abused by their domestic partners.

psst. You might check the context of the conversation before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

 

[LondonJohn]

When you said that somebody would benefit from reading the DSM-V (sic) and gave a 'hint' that they will find out from doing so that trans-ethnic identity is viewed by consensus as a mental health disorder.

Nope. Try reading my post again, for comprehension. Where did I state or imply that both conditions were explicitly addressed within DSM-V?

Somebody merely claiming that they identify as an Egyptian Pharaoh is not sufficient to diagnose them as having a mental health disorder.

Well, obviously they'd require one or more person-to-person consultations with a properly-accredited psychiatrist prior to an actual diagnosis. But I had assumed the existence of such professional scrutiny and diagnosis - and in any event, let's now both assume that this has indeed taken place in both instances (i.e. Person A has consulted at length with a psychiatrist and is convinced that they have a transgender identity, and Person B has consulted at length with a psychiatrist and is convinced they are an Egyptian Pharaoh).

 

[LondonJohn]

The Department of Justice should stick to issues of criminality, and leave sociology and psychology to the actual experts.

Ah, well then you're in for a surprise when you find out what the actual experts think in this whole area (and probably equally surprised when you find out the sorts of people who have been explicitly advising entities such as the DoJ and other similar institutions).

 

[mumblethrax]

Serious question: If a male grows out their hair, puts on make-up, and wears a dress, do you actually find yourself convinced that they are genuinely female?

Do I think that literally changes their sex? No.

What do you think follows from that, as it relates to this conversation?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I've been thinking about the conversation about calling people titles in light of this thread. If someone introduces themselves as "Dr Jones" who among us immediately challenges that? "Doctor, eh? Show me your diploma! What is your degree type, and in what subject? I have to assess your major to decide if it's legitimate or not! What was your GPA? Your certifications? I am a warrior of the truth and you can't make me call you 'doctor'!!!!" I'm hoping very few people would be like that. There are indeed situations where such investigation and challenge is warranted: if you're hiring someone for your faculty, if you're considering having them do your surgery, if they're proposing marriage to you, or attempting to borrow money. But in the vast majority of casual situations it's perfectly normal -- indeed, pretty much required by courtesy-- to take people's declared titles on faith and use them. It's not an endorsement. It doesn't mean "oh my god, if I call him 'Dr Jones' and it turns out he's two credits shy of graduating I could be sued for misleading potential patients!" It just means "he says he's 'Dr Jones' and Short Round wants him invited to the wedding so I'll put 'Dr Jones' on the invitation and seat him far away from the German cousins."

Why aren't pronouns the same? I'll call Sherry 'she' because she goes by it, my doing so isn't a papal imprimatur on Sherry's theories of sex and gender, nor is it a legal testament, nor is it a medical exam result. I may not give a fig what Sherry's got in her underpants, or what she thinks about her own body. I don't have to. I'm not being asked to judge her, I'm just being asked to get along politely in society, like a mature individual who can mind his own business. Why is that so hard?

 

[Ziggurat]

psst. You might check the context of the conversation before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

Nobody was denying the existence of anything. This was a definitional dispute. If I say that verbal abuse isn't violence, I'm not saying verbal abuse doesn't happen. Hell, I'm not even saying it's not bad. I'm saying I don't agree with the categorization of verbal abuse as violence.

Emily's Cat's response was reasonable even in context, given that you were straw manning your opponents.

 

[theprestige]

Do I think that literally changes their sex? No.

What do you think follows from that, as it relates to this conversation?

For me it follows that it is reasonable to use masculine pronouns to refer to them, if they still code as male to you; and that it is unreasonable to demand that other pronouns be used in place of the usual sex-referencing ones.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not being asked to judge her, I'm just being asked to get along politely in society, like a mature individual who can mind his own business. Why is that so hard?

You aren't being asked at all, if you can lose your job as a teacher or professor for failing to use the correct pronouns. You are being given orders.

 

[Ziggurat]

I've been thinking about the conversation about calling people titles in light of this thread. If someone introduces themselves as "Dr Jones" who among us immediately challenges that?

It's really not the same. In a professional setting, such titles are vetted, and there is an objective standard by which such titles are granted. You cannot simply decide that you're going to be Dr. Jones because you feel like it.

In a nonprofessional setting, if you introduce yourself as Dr. Jones, you likely won't get challenged, but neither is anyone obliged to refer to you as Dr. Jones. If you take offense because someone refers to you as Mr. Jones, you're the *******.

Why aren't pronouns the same?

To start with, because there's no objective standard for pronoun choice other than sex, and that's specifically being rejected. And to end with, because you're the ******* if you get your panties in a bunch when people call you Mr. instead of Dr.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We are definitely not that good at it.

Up until we started experimenting with cross sex hormones, we were pretty good at it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do I think that literally changes their sex? No.

That's not what I was asking. Do you literally perceive them as female? If a male has long hair, wears make-up, and wears a dress... are you unable to tell that they are male?