Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

[Reformed Offlian]

Love it.

In order to keep my job, I would cease using pronouns for all people trans and non-trans.

OR you could just try to use whichever pronouns your employer deems appropriate. I doubt it's the most onerous thing you've ever done to keep a job.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

It seems to me that shifting this convo from institutional norms which may be enforced by an educational institution (e.g. CU Boulder) to a matter of simple interpersonal politeness between friends constitutes a retreat from the bailey to the motte. The controversial position, in this case, is that pronouns must be taken to refer to gender identity on pain of institutional sanction. The much more defensible position is that it is nice to be polite to your colleagues and friends.

For me, the practical question is how to create the least hostile workplace in view of conflicting ideologies. If you consider using alternative pronouns as creating a hostile workplace, then your voice should be considered. But you'd have to convey why alternate pronouns are hostile to you and not just irritating or inconvenient. Even then, the institution's Mission Statement and Values are probably going to win the day.

 

[theprestige]

I was considering the question as it relates to an institution's policies, such as a college.

The state and the people have a legitimate interest in the policies adopted by colleges and other institutions.

 

[mumblethrax]

I'm still a bit surprised to see skeptics—speakers of uncomfortable truths in so many other contexts—easily swayed by arguments which boil down to the idea that we ought to be catering to feelings (avoiding the linguistic violence of misgendering) rather than plainly acknowledging facts (avoiding the linguistic confusion of missexing). It certainly is not obvious to me why we should invariably choose the former path over the latter, especially since the arguments provided thus far are basically appeals to authority and/or majority.

We’re allowed to be off the clock sometimes. If I’m at a funeral and someone comforts the aggrieved with “They’re in a better place now”, I’m unlikely to challenge them to support the notion.

These aren’t appeals to anything because they don’t go to truth but to courtesy.

 

[dirtywick]

the web page referenced was written by college students for college students on how to make other college students feel more comfortable and why they should choose to do so. interpersonal politeness was the entire point of the document.

 

[Upchurch]

Clearly some folks have been quite confused, since they could not articulate why it was a bad idea to allow males into spaces, leagues, and record books hitherto reserved for females. What was obvious to their forebears on the subject of sex differences became obscure and confusing to collegiate sports officials, among many others.

It seems obvious to me that there are some inherent assumptions in how you've set up the question. But that's another thread's topic. Not the topic of this thread.

 

[d4m10n]

the web page referenced was written by college students for college students on how to make other college students feel more comfortable and why they should choose to do so. interpersonal politeness was the entire point of the document.

That's all well and good, and like I said upthread it is of little to no consequence, per se.

Perhaps it is off topic to point out that CU does consider gender identity a protected class in their Discrimination & Harassment Policy, and thus there are enforceable policies which go well beyond the tips for interpersonal politeness in the web page being passed around on right wing social media.

 

[d4m10n]

We’re allowed to be off the clock sometimes. If I’m at a funeral and someone comforts the aggrieved with “They’re in a better place now”, I’m unlikely to challenge them to support the notion.

Fair enough, sometimes good manners really are more important than good epistemology. Not always, though, and sometimes people will use your sense of propriety to prevent you from saying true things which need to be said, as when a cold reader encourages respect for the bereaved while fleecing them.

 

[d4m10n]

For me, the practical question is how to create the least hostile workplace in view of conflicting ideologies.

Between the people who think pronouns should generally refer to sex and those who believe they must refer to gender, the latter have already carried the day. There is no room for debate on this matter, at least not at CU, and probably not at major companies other than perhaps Hobby Lobby and Chick-Fil-A.

 

[Steve]

A decent part of being a nice human is to not intentionally upset your fellow humans, and when being nice doesn't cost you anything the only reason for not being nice is because you are not a nice person.

Not sure that anyone casually encountering me in the course of my daily affairs would consider me to be a nice human. I do not go out of my way to be not nice, but there is a big load of "don't care" in my demeanor toward casual encounters. IMO too many people care too much about what others, especially strangers, think of them.

 

[Upchurch]

Between the people who think pronouns should generally refer to sex and those who believe they must refer to gender, the latter have already carried the day. There is no room for debate on this matter, at least not at CU, and probably not at major companies other than perhaps Hobby Lobby and Chick-Fil-A.

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that languages work on the basis of sex and not gender. In English, ships are gendered female despite lacking any sort of biological sexual attributes. I'm currently taking German, for example, and eggs are inexplicably gendered as male. I lose more points on the gender of nouns than any other aspect of the language. Spelling is probably a close second.

 

[gnome]

To step back a moment, are we seeing an example of the conflict between proscriptive and descriptive models of grammar and language?

 

[Thermal]

Transgender rates of depression, anxiety and suicide. It means a lot to them.

Right, but pretty sure that pronoun usage is not the factor that brings the pain. I'd be willing to lay odds that the troubled ones are not the ones saying they want to be called "xe"

That's kind of where I'm going with all this. As I said earlier, a trans person can make that call, that they genuinely feel like they are in the wrong body, and I respect that and will happily call them he or she as they like. It's the "they" and "xes" and "zhirs" that is furrowing my brow a bit. I'm not interested in made-up identities.

That implies subservience. It's not the same thing.

You said that it's not an issue because it costs you next to nothing. Lowering your eyes costs you next to nothing either, yes? Calling them The Lord? No skin off ye olde back, yes?

 

[Olmstead]

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that languages work on the basis of sex and not gender. In English, ships are gendered female despite lacking any sort of biological sexual attributes. I'm currently taking German, for example, and eggs are inexplicably gendered as male. I lose more points on the gender of nouns than any other aspect of the language. Spelling is probably a close second.

"Ei" is neutral.

 

[Thermal]

To step back a moment, are we seeing an example of the conflict between proscriptive and descriptive models of grammar and language?

We are for sure seeing gender as being demanded to be proscriptive. The descriptiveness is being told to some of us that we is wrong.

That they can't get consistent with theeaning of gender makes it a little silly to be proscriptive tho.

 

[Upchurch]

"Ei" is neutral.

I'm using Duolingo, so I speak with zero authority. Also, I'm notoriously bad at gendered nouns. I looked back and I swear it was telling me that Ei was male. *shrug*. I double checked that "salad" is (I hope) male, because reasons. I'm not sure one could argue that der Salat has male sexual attributes.

 

[Darat]

What makes you believe it is entirely costless to play along with the notion that people can change their sex? Plenty of costs have been pointed out in the other thread, most of them falling upon natal females.

How many failures to comply ought to get (CU Boulder) students sent home, in your view?

Not playing along with anyone, just being nice and using the words they wish me to use. It costs me exactly nothing to do so and it costs no one else anything. That you need to tie it into changing sex is your issue not mine.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

Right, but pretty sure that pronoun usage is not the factor that brings the pain. I'd be willing to lay odds that the troubled ones are not the ones saying they want to be called "xe"

That's kind of where I'm going with all this. As I said earlier, a trans person can make that call, that they genuinely feel like they are in the wrong body, and I respect that and will happily call them he or she as they like. It's the "they" and "xes" and "zhirs" that is furrowing my brow a bit. I'm not interested in made-up identities.

Actually, the highlighted is one of the things that does "bring the pain."

Having one’s name and pronouns accepted (Bailey et al., 2014; Bauer et al., 2015a; Haas et al., 2011; SPRC, 2008).... is known to reduce the risk of suicide.

You said that it's not an issue because it costs you next to nothing. Lowering your eyes costs you next to nothing either, yes? Calling them The Lord? No skin off ye olde back, yes?

Being subservient does cost me something. It's not the same thing.

 

[theprestige]

Not playing along with anyone, just being nice and using the words they wish me to use. It costs me exactly nothing to do so and it costs no one else anything. That you need to tie it into changing sex is your issue not mine.

Why not use the words you wish to use? Why do your wishes get demoted? Someone looks male to you, you use masculine pronouns. Unless they tell you your perception doesn't matter. Okay, so what gives them that privilege, to tell you that you don't see what you see?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Why not use the words you wish to use? Why do your wishes get demoted? Someone looks male to you, you use masculine pronouns. Unless they tell you your perception doesn't matter. Okay, so what gives them that privilege, to tell you that you don't see what you see?

Again, politeness and empathy?