• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??

Hercules56 said:
No One can accuse you of violence or bigotry if you just use their chosen name of a transgender person.
Click to expand...

That could work if transgendered persons start to wear name tags so that all strangers could know their chosen names.

Actually if I am speaking directly to a transgendered person the only pronoun I will likely use is the non-gendered "you". If I am talking about a non-present person of any gender to a third party that non-present person will have no idea what third-person pronouns I may use and will have no opportunity to be offended, or violent.
 
"its a form of harrassment to refer to transgender people by their name and non-trans folks by their appropriate pronoun".........in 3....2..1....
 
Hercules56 said:
You can't force people to use a pronoun when they prefer to simply use the given name.
Click to expand...
I don't think you'd get kicked out of CU Boulder for using given names rather than pronouns, at least not as a student, so long as you didn't make a big stink about it.

If a professor used pronouns only for their cisgender students, they would probably be in breach of the code of conduct.
 
Hercules56 said:
As I said I have found the perfect solution to this problem. Simply refer to a transgender person by their name. Not any pronouns. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
:covereyes

You do know that many transgender people prefer to be called by their pronoun of choice as well as their name of choice right?

If you're calling them their birth name then you haven't solved the problem and if you're calling them by their preferred name then how is that any different than calling them their preferred pronoun?
 
Lothian said:
If you really can't use their preferred pronoun without it destroying your self worth then sure, use their name.
Click to expand...

Gender based pronouns are largely, if not exclusively, third person pronouns.

I am not aware that I know personally any trans-gendered persons. Nobody I have ever met has identified themself to me as trans-gendered. Nor has anyone I know ever advised me that a mutual acquaintance is trans-gendered. But, if I met a trans-gendered person who advised me of their preferred pronouns I would gladly use those preferred pronouns in appropriate discussions. All of which which means that any trans-gendered persons I encounter will very likely be strangers. In a casual encounter with a stranger I have no idea if I would recognize them as trans-gendered from appearance alone. It is not something that matters enough to me to bother looking for any clues or signs. If I do not recognize a stranger as trans-gender would it then become proper for me to ask all strangers I encounter their gender identity and what pronouns I should use should I ever wish to refer to them in the third-person in a future discussion with someone else?
 
The_Animus said:
:covereyes

You do know that many transgender people prefer to be called by their pronoun of choice as well as their name of choice right?

If you're calling them their birth name then you haven't solved the problem and if you're calling them by their preferred name then how is that any different than calling them their preferred pronoun?
Click to expand...

I am puzzling over any situation where, in direct discussion with a transgendered person, I would find it necessary to use any pronoun to refer directly to them.

Hey, (name), would you like to come out for a drink?
vs
Hey, he/she/they/them/pronoun of your choice, would you like to come out for a drink?

Just doesn't work for me??? I am very likely missing something. Please correct me.
 
Hercules56 said:
No One can accuse you of violence or bigotry if you just use their chosen name of a transgender person.
Click to expand...

Are you sure folk will if the name doesn't jib with what their standards are? A trans woman may say their name is "Helen" but for some folks even on this forum that wouldn't be used as they consider that to be misgendering.
 
Steve said:
I am puzzling over any situation where, in direct discussion with a transgendered person, I would find it necessary to use any pronoun to refer directly to them.

Hey, (name), would you like to come out for a drink?
vs
Hey, he/she/they/them/pronoun of your choice, would you like to come out for a drink?

Just doesn't work for me??? I am very likely missing something. Please correct me.
Click to expand...

I think you're possibly attributing what I said to some other part of the discussion that my comment was not intended towards. Nothing I said is in reference to genuinely not knowing someones gender identity and accidently misgendering them. The trans people I know may not like it but they understand it happens and generally won't hold it against you so long as you're not a prick about it. You tell them it wasn't intentional and you'd be happy to use their name/pronoun of choice. It's only really an issue when it's intentional, or you accidently do it repeatedly such that it seems intentional.
 
Darat said:
If that happened in a workplace in the UK it would be grounds for discrimination.
Click to expand...


Okay well then I guess it would be best for people simply to refer to everyone by their name and not a pronoun. That way no one can claim violence has been done against them or harassment.
 
Hercules56 said:
I thought about the issue and I now agree with the article in Psychology Today. Words and speech are never an act of violence. Ever. They can threaten violence, they can be terrible harassment, they can be a criminal threat and criminal harassment. But they are not and should never be treated as equal to violence.
Click to expand...
Great, that constitutes progress towards coherency. Having held a different position in the distant past of yesterday, you might want to exhibit a little bit more patience and charity if people don't immediately agree with your new position.

Actually NYC does indeed have a policy of fining landlords if they intentionally and repeatedly use the wrong pronouns to describe their tenants.
Click to expand...
More accurately, the New York City Commission on Human Rights has issued enforcement guidance that states that landlords can be fined for maliciously misgendering people. They do not seem to have a policy of doing so, given that it has never happened.

When it takes you four or five tries to get within spitting distance of the truth, it's probably time to consider whether you're relying on good sources of information.

Steve said:
That could work if transgendered persons start to wear name tags so that all strangers could know their chosen names.
Click to expand...
Or you could, I dunno, ask them their name? The degree of social incompetence on display in these threads at least makes me feel better about myself.

Actually if I am speaking directly to a transgendered person the only pronoun I will likely use is the non-gendered "you". If I am talking about a non-present person of any gender to a third party that non-present person will have no idea what third-person pronouns I may use and will have no opportunity to be offended, or violent.
Click to expand...
After all, the way you refer to people who aren't present never gets back to them.
 
Last edited:
Hercules56 said:
Okay well then I guess it would be best for people simply to refer to everyone by their name and not a pronoun. That way no one can claim violence has been done against them or harassment.
Click to expand...

Or just not be unpleasant, do your best and apologize when you get something wrong.

I occasionally have trans pupils come trough when I teach and if I slip up on their names/pronouns I say 'sorry' and try to remember to do better next time. The same as when I get two pupils that look alike (to me) mixed up.
What I do not do is treat them differently from anyone else.
So when I write their reports I use their preferred pronouns, the same as with every other pupil.

I know, it's hard to be polite and courteous, but I find that doing that is something that makes people accept the occasional slip up.
 
The_Animus said:
I think you're possibly attributing what I said to some other part of the discussion that my comment was not intended towards. Nothing I said is in reference to genuinely not knowing someones gender identity and accidently misgendering them. The trans people I know may not like it but they understand it happens and generally won't hold it against you so long as you're not a prick about it. You tell them it wasn't intentional and you'd be happy to use their name/pronoun of choice. It's only really an issue when it's intentional, or you accidently do it repeatedly such that it seems intentional.
Click to expand...

I probably should not have quoted you as I went on a bit of a tangent. Apologies, but thanks for the response.
 
Lothian said:
Quit with your snowflakery.
Click to expand...

Preferred pronouns are the real snowflakery.

With very rare exceptions, people code as male or female to others. We have pronouns for that.

When I refer to a male as "he", I'm not referring to how he envisions himself inside his own head. I'm referring to how I envision him in my head. And how you envision him in your head. Even if you acquiesce to his preferred contra-sex-coded pronouns, you're still aware of how he actually codes. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to think about preferred versus actual pronouns. You'd just use the one that's already in your head, alongside your own sense of him as male.

Demanding that you dismiss your own sense of the world, and replace it with theirs, is an act of oppression. At this stage in the preferred pronoun debate, it's de facto gaslighting, an act of abuse. Trans rights activists have gotten the whole business of pronouns ass over teakettle. They're trying to colonize your mind with perceived realities that you know aren't true. And you're helping them do it.
 
mumblethrax said:
Or you could, I dunno, ask them their name? The degree of social incompetence on display in these threads at least makes me feel better about myself.


After all, the way you refer to people who aren't present never gets back to them.
Click to expand...

So every time some seeming dude in the grocery store makes an offhand comment about the condition of the apples, or a female appearing person at the dog park comments on the weather, or the parking lot attendant cracks a joke, I should ask them their name and gender identity because if I mention this interaction to someone else and use the wrong pronouns it may get back to them and they will be offended? Frankly my friend, random people just aint that important to me.

To be perfectly clear, I would be more than happy to defer to and use the preferences of family members, coworkers, clients and other professionals, and those with whom I interact on an ongoing basis. Casual encounters do not get the same effort.
 
theprestige said:
Preferred pronouns are the real snowflakery.

With very rare exceptions, people code as male or female to others. We have pronouns for that.

When I refer to a male as "he", I'm not referring to how he envisions himself inside his own head. I'm referring to how I envision him in my head. And how you envision him in your head. Even if you acquiesce to his preferred contra-sex-coded pronouns, you're still aware of how he actually codes. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to think about preferred versus actual pronouns. You'd just use the one that's already in your head, alongside your own sense of him as male.

Demanding that you dismiss your own sense of the world, and replace it with theirs, is an act of oppression. At this stage in the preferred pronoun debate, it's de facto gaslighting, an act of abuse. Trans rights activists have gotten the whole business of pronouns ass over teakettle. They're trying to colonize your mind with perceived realities that you know aren't true. And you're helping them do it.
Click to expand...

You are claiming you are being oppressed and abused because they simply ask to be referred to as he or she and you think they are the snowflake, Sheesh .

I will gender someone but if they tell me they prefer me to use the other term I will do my best to remember just as when Dave says please call me David or Susan wants to be called Susie. It is not about what I think, it is about bring polite and making others feel good about themselves. Being kind shouldn't make you feel bad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom