Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
Moderated Using wrong pronouns= violence??
- Thread starter d4m10n
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Does it follow from your analogy that Logan Brown should be denied obstetric care?
https://twitter.com/GlamourMagUK/status/1664227176382861314
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mumblethrax
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Cat Not Included
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Really? 5 years? I'd be really surprised if someone hasn't already called the police about it. I mean, people call 911 because their delivery pizza was cold. People are often dumb.
And "justify the use of physical force" in 5 years? Really? You don't think that's way old news? First, people have been assaulting and killing each other over stupid insults for as long as there have been people.
Second, people yes, have literally used "that person was gay/trans and saying things I didn't like (such as flirting) with me" as justification and defense for violence they committed. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense for a quick rundown.
Third, in whatever you consider the good ol' days that weren't "interesting times", you think you could call your male boss a woman and "she" repeatedly and not get fired? You think you could say repeatedly and insultingly call a group of macho tough guys "girls" and "she" and not get beat up? You think if you kept going up to a wealthy guy and shout gender slurs at them and they WOULDN'T file charges or call the police?
Go on, find a guy with a truck covered in MAGA and "get yer hands off my 2nd amendment" stickers and go out and shout about he's really a girl every day. I mean, probably don't do this because when you get shot I'll probably feel some measure of guilt about it since I suggested it.
Offensive speech has always been considered violent when its been said by people with less 'power' to people with 'more' power in whatever form, and has always at time met with "violent" response. Now that we're reaching a point where traditionally "lesser" people are now calling for the speech to be regarded as violence from a moral standpoint (note, not even generally to advocate violence in return), all of a sudden the far-right and terribly, terribly concerned that oooh, this attitude is the end of the world.
So nothing to see. You checked the link?
Thought not.
mumblethrax
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When are you going to "transcribe some salient sentences in support of the extreme danger to kids and youth by the use of pronouns"? I don't do proxy arguments by youtube.
mumblethrax
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A possibly interesting sidebar: contra those who imagine that English pronouns have been working great up until this point, people (particularly Quakers) were subjected to violence for using thou in the 17th century. This was because you had been used to address those of higher social standing (probably in imitation of French), and thou to refer to those of lower social standing. Over time, being thoued took on an insulting connotation--"You think you're better than me?!" Quakers were a hold-out (and a persecuted religious minority), and as a result were often beaten and put in fear of their lives.
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Hercules56
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Can we at least all agree that using the wrong pronoun for a transgender person is not in itself an act of violence?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
When Galileo promoted heliocentrism, he was denounced for linguistic violence?
Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
I can agree (with myself, that's easiest) that this whole thread is a squirrel or something.
The word "violence" appears once in that item (my higlights):
"Choosing to ignore or disrespect someone’s pronouns is not only an act of oppression but can also be considered an act of violence."
They were never making the explicit/strong statement that you implied, in the title of this thread.
The word that appears much more often is "offensive". It seems clear to me that the "violence" comment is more about highlighting just how offensive disrespecting someones pronouns can be to them.
I've never been convinced by people trying to use too-literal dictionary definitions to make a case in discussion. e.g. People who say they are not homophobic because "phobic" means "fear" and they are not literally afraid of homosexual people; e.g. people who try to distract from a discussion about some form of bigotry because it's been described as "racism" but the specific target isn't a "race". Whatever.
Seems to me what you are really arguing for, is the continued right of bullies to bully ... the victims should just "grow up butter cup".
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Hercules56
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Nope, wrong. Bullies should be dealt with. But just as a frog is not a Tesla, speech is not violence. Shame we can't even agree on something so simple.
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mumblethrax
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You don’t agree that speech is not violence. You called a threat of violence ‘violent speech’. You’ve already contradicted the proposition you’re trying to get everyone to agree to.
You’re in no position to tut your tongue about it.
I'm pretty sure the only way to truly deal with a bully is to completely remove them from the victim's life, either through murder, imprisonment, or forcible relocation.
Also, psychological violence has been a term for at least half a century.
Ziggurat
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Don't take this as criticism for making the reference, but the source is lamer than I had hoped. Not hard core at all.
I and many others on this site are subjected to being referred to with terms that we find insulting and offensive on a regular basis. In many cases, we have even explicitly said that we find it insulting.
Somehow, the people who feel that they are righteously justified in harassing people who hold "wrong views" or who are "the bad side of politics" or similar seem like they think it's perfectly fine for them to be intentionally and willfully insulting, while simultaneously insisting that I (and others) MUST refrain from using terms that hurt their feelings. Or more often, words that they think might hurt the feelings of an absent group of people that they've decided to white-knight for.
Views or political opinions do not confer any protections towards disagreement from other viewpoints while attacks against persona are generally protected.
No rule or regulation usually prevents people from being intolerant and bigoted but they better not act surprised when they do get treated as such. At the moment the complaint seems to be that people are not getting away with being total d*cks like they used to.
mumblethrax
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I dunno, it's pretty hardcore anti-Semitic. But yeah, it would have been better as a Dethklok album or something. At least it's memorably unhinged.
You are currently accusing people for a crime (under current laws), that they have not committed nor are they going to commit. IF you truly and really think this is going to happen, then you are potentially advocating "self-defense" against this threat are you not?
Some points:
- There is no “they” – no trans cabal trying to take over the world, no conspiracy to destroy family values or anything just a bunch of people that deserve the same common respect you’d show to any other.
- Insulting or offending trans will not make it a legally permitted to assault IN retaliation. Nor is there any plausible way to codify this into any law so it's a straight out lie.
- Claim holds direct implication of threat of how “they” will use violence against “us” – Really? Current experience shows that transpeople are disproportionately targeted by violence (amount of transphobic crimes in UK quadrubled over 6 y - Link so the pronouns are they smallest concern for the community for now.
The problem is not the pronouns it is devaluation of the basic human rights and lack of respect that is shown in using wrong terms. Intentional use of a wrong pronoun is a symptom of the targeting and violence directed at the transcommunity where everyone (if they haven't been assaulted) know atleast some person who got beaten for who they are. Yes, it's the N-word equivelant.
The lies spread by bigots about the goals of the community "5 years" from now is one of the driving influences in the violence aimed at the folks.
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Then you will love this cracker of a monologue from Megyn Kelly.
Lie back and think of America
https://youtu.be/FxB0LHvS4fg
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dirtywick
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Conservatives aren't the ones melting like snowflakes when their preferred pronoun is ignored. And then claiming to be a victim of "violence". Cuz they feewings hurt.
oh, the ones terrified of being beaten up by trans betas aren't melting like snowflakes? over a community college blog post lol
Kinda hard to get sympathy for some swimmer running away in tears from the evil vicious transmafia (the heels are fabulous) after having a highschool friend with Kleinfelters transition at 22 and get absolutely trashed with 2 broken ribs, severe concussion and broken arm after turning down unwanted advances in a bar. So can't really gather up much of a sympathy for someone doused in tomato juice - I hope they didn't get violently shouted at.. Oh wait.
Trans are not lobbying for any special rights, they are fighting to get equal rights and privileged snowflakes are really up in arms about that.
That being said, sure she can decline from using the correct pronouns nothing illegal about that, just makes it easier to avoid the snowflake Karen.
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