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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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It doesn't follow that because it landed amongst rocks that therefore the rocks did the damage.

In real life, it pretty much does follow. Remember, you have admitted that you have no experience in forensic engineering investigation. Please stop trying to pretend you can teach it to the rest of us. Especially since that's part of what I do for a living.
 
What about Bollyn? My quoting someone is not an endorsement of what they are saying.


You claimed that every assertion you have made was backed up by a reputable source. Bollyn is the source you used to back up one of your assertions. So yes, you are endorsing not only the claim Bollyn made, but his general reputabiity as a source. Same deal with Bjorkman.
 
Today I learned the force exerted on the seabed when the wreck of a ship lands on it is identical to the hydrostatic pressure the sea was already exerting on that seabed.

Note that this is based on a ship weighing 15,000 tons, even though that figure is not used in the calculation, and merely hangs around near the calculation trying to look relevant.
 
Today I learned the force exerted on the seabed when the wreck of a ship lands on it is identical to the hydrostatic pressure the sea was already exerting on that seabed.

Note that this is based on a ship weighing 15,000 tons, even though that figure is not used in the calculation, and merely hangs around near the calculation trying to look relevant.

Not to mention that the ship's buoyancy is irrelevant, and it is accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s, despite falling through water rather than air.
 
Today I learned the force exerted on the seabed when the wreck of a ship lands on it is identical to the hydrostatic pressure the sea was already exerting on that seabed.

Note that this is based on a ship weighing 15,000 tons, even though that figure is not used in the calculation, and merely hangs around near the calculation trying to look relevant.

F=Ma (where a is the deceleration of the object on impact) is apparently just another of those bits of physics that are different under water I guess. :rolleyes:
 
Not to mention that the ship's buoyancy is irrelevant, and it is accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s, despite falling through water rather than air.

There's no way Estonia would've accelerated at 9.8m/s/s to the bottom.

MS Estonia would have still likely had some air pockets giving partial buyouncy. Plus there's drag of course.
 
Yes. I'm sure about that.

You are correct. A sinking ship landing on the seafloor invokes ordinary collision mechanics. This is governed by kinetic energy, a concept Vixen has previously grappled with and lost. Kinetic energy is reckoned from mass and velocity. Here the mass is more than just the ship's displacement, but I'm not going to tangentially explain the inertial factors in this post. Velocity depends on the downward gravity force—which operates the same underwater as it does above the surface—residual buoyancy, and hydrodynamic effects.

A ship founders the moment it exhibits negative buoyancy. Initially this can be a comparatively small force, but it generally increases during the sinking progression as flooding increases and air departs. This part of the computation is relatively straightforward. The mass of the flooded ship results in an easily computed downward gravitational force. Buoyancy is reckoned from the average density of the flooded ship (obviously much greater than the average density of the healthy ship) and the portion of it that is submerged—in the case of a foundered vessel, all of it. The force vectors are defined to be in opposite directions, so the final computation is simple arithmetic. That's the only accelerative force acting on the sinking ship. To correct Zooterkin: Earth's gravitational acceleration is 9.81 m·s-2 in a vacuum.

Hydrodynamic effects are vastly more complicated. Two locomotives colliding—such as in the staged wrecks of the late 19th century—get to ignore aerodynamics. Both vehicles are moving through a fluid, but the dynamic effects of that fluid are negligible compared to the other factors. But an airplane wing falling from the site aloft of a midair collision will incur enough air resistance that we need to account for it in the dynamics computations. It will likely reach terminal velocity, and this is the velocity we have to use when figuring the kinetic energy of the wing's impact on the ground.

A ship that sinks in sufficiently deep water will also likely reach terminal velocity. And terminal velocities for objects sinking in water is much slower than for the same object in air because the water is obviously much more dense. It is the density of the fluid that factors into hydrodynamic resistance.

Static pressure of the seawater is utterly irrelevant.

In any case, water is dense enough that even without contemplating terminal velocity we have to consider the hydrodynamics in order to determine any sort of velocity accurately—including the directional component of contact with the seafloor. Fluid resistance depends, as I said, on density, but more importantly on the area of the aspect of the object at right angles to the object's path. This changes as the ship rotates while underwater. And the resulting planing forces in turn change the direction of motion. Ships are meant to be hydrodynamic in part, and often aerodynamic in part. So a sinking ship hull will tend to align with its intended fluid flow as the velocity becomes high enough. (Fluid resistance is proportional in magnitude to the square of the velocity.)

The resulting damage to the vessel and the seafloor depends on the elasticity of the collision, which would have to be another post.

No, what Vixen posted has a nothing to do with how to solve the problem. It appears to be a pastiche of generally valid (but unrelated) physics principles thrown together in the vague hope that it looks like something.
 
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There's no way Estonia would've accelerated at 9.8m/s/s to the bottom.

Correct. That is the acceleration in a vacuum. Net acceleration under different conditions must accommodate other forces that those conditions may impose. Since both acceleration and force are vector quantities, you can do the computation either using accelerations or forces. But the velocity we're interested in is from net acceleration. For that we have to consider buoyancy.

But there is a giant caveat in that buoyancy (as we formulate it today) invokes the difference between inertial and non-inertial reference frames.

And since we're sticklers for notation in this thread, it's not allowed to repeat the solidus ("/") in a linear unit expression. You must write either m/s2 or m·s-2 so that there is at most one solidus.
 
And since we're sticklers for notation in this thread, it's not allowed to repeat the solidus ("/") in a linear unit expression. You must write either m/s2 or m·s-2 so that there is at most one solidus.

But since it's under water, wouldn't that make it liquidus? :P
 
If it did, I shall relax a bit from worrying the robots are about to take over the world.

Obtaining a successful solution from AI at the present state of the art requires the supplicant to specify his requirements correctly, completely, and clearly. In thirty years of practicing engineering, I have yet to see a customer who can do this.
 
It's a fascinating world that Vixen lives in.

The same thought crossed my mind. It looks plausible at first glance, but is gibberish on closer inspection.

Conspiracy theorists really do seem to think this is how the world works. They seem to think no one is actually an expert, and therefore that no one can tell for sure whether any given bolus of argumentation works or not.

Vixen likely wouldn't understand any of the classic formulations of buoyancy, or the derivation of any other physical principle. Regardless of her purported scores on the OWLs or POGs or whatever it may have been decades ago, she demonstrates zero correct understanding of physics at this forum. I imagine that all those derivations look like gibberish to her. But she knows that—somehow—it justifies things to people. When the question is asked, "How does buoyancy work, at a physical level?" she acknowledges that a certain pile of maths gives an answer that satisfies the asker, even if she herself can't see exactly why.

But the central tenet of conspiracism (and of armchair investigation) is that whatever little knowledge or understanding the theorist already has—or can rapidly Google—is all one needs to be the hero. There can exist no greater expertise in the conspiracist's world than what the conspiracist herself already possesses. This is why Vixen constantly tries to teach everyone. It's an exercise to reinforce the professorial illusion.

According to this axiom, if she can't understand a pile of math, no one else must be able to either. Not really. They're just pretending; doing only slightly a better job of it than she is. And because she sees piles of (to her, unintelligible) maths being accepted by skeptics and experts as proofs, she concludes that so long as the cobbled-up pile looks impressive enough, skeptics have to accept it or else reveal some sort of duplicity for rhetorical effect. It doesn't enter her thinking that people who aren't her can actually tell whether an argument expressed in physics or mathematical notation means anything. In the real world, people are smarter than she is, and more experienced.

Longtime skeptics can certainly hear Dunning and Kruger shuffling in the wings.

I gather we're just a few posts away from the motte-and-bailey excuse again: she's just "interested" and just "asking questions" and why is this inappropriate. She hasn't yet appreciated that asking loaded questions out of ignorance is presumptuous and rude, and that arrogantly trying to correct her betters is behavior that not everyone thinks should go without criticism on a skeptics forum.
 
It's the magic spell style of argumentation. I recall in the Jabba thread him attempting to use the names of logical fallacies (hilariously incorrectly) as if just saying the words "ad hominem" made the other persons argument wrong.

I'd like to explain yet again that I'm a complete layman when it comes to any of the maths and physics presented in this thread. I could probably do a buoyancy calculation if it was explained to me first, but as it stands right now I've got no idea. It's just, as Jay puts it, a pile of maths to me. I don't even pretend to understand shipbuilding engineering as it's way beyond me, but I do know that there are experts out there and we're lucky enough to have at least one on the board. I defer to their expertise because they actually have the expertise needed. I don't feel my intelligence or my ego is slighted by accepting I don't have a clue what they are on about but they do.

I've never understood the almost pathological need in some people to be seen as a polymath. If someone claims expertise at a subject (because it's their job, or field of study or what have you) they also have to claim to understand, even if it's woefully obvious they don't have a clue.

Watching this thread as an interested layman is like watching Kasperov and Fischer double team someone who keeps arguing that the castle moves diagonally.
 
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