Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[lionking]

You may not care about trans men, but I would not be so comfortable assuming your blase attitude about them is universally shared. Even among the broader group of transphobes, the narrow focus on women only seems to mostly be a preoccupation of TERFs.

How many times must it be pointed out to you that this thread is about transwomen?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How many times must it be pointed out to you that this thread is about transwomen?

The two issues are inextricably linked whether TERFs care to admit it or not.

 

[Brainster]

I don't think you understand the meaning of the phrase "wedge issue".

Wedge issue: An issue where the public responds to the Democrats' message by giving them a wedgie.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Wedge issue: An issue where the public responds to the Democrats' message by giving them a wedgie.

I don't think many of our thread participants would appreciate the implication that being anti-trans is a strictly partisan issue in the US, but that is very much the case. Anti-abortion zealots make strange bedfellows for the supposed defenders of womanhood.

 

[d4m10n]

...the narrow focus on women only seems to mostly be a preoccupation of TERFs.

I've highlighted one possible reason why they focus on women.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I've highlighted one possible reason why they focus on women.

Well yeah, it's not a mystery. My point is that TERFism is just one of many voices on this issue, and in the US they aren't an especially important one. Their laser focus on only women's issues should not constrain the broader conversation on this topic.

I will admit that TERFs seem quite numerous and influential in the UK specifically. It's a strange place in many ways.

 

[d4m10n]

My point is that TERFism is just one of many voices on this issue, and in the US they aren't an especially important one. Their laser focus on only women's issues should not constrain the broader conversation on this topic.

So far as I can tell, there are basically two camps in opposition to the trans activist project (i.e. deprecation of biological sex in favor of gender identity) when it comes to sorting people out on those rare occasions when we do not generally prefer a fully co-ed environment: radfems and tradcons. These two groups agree that males and females are genuinely different and deserve their own spaces, leagues, record books, etc. but they disagree fairly strongly on why this is should be so. In the U.S. the radical feminists have almost no influence, presumably because American feminists are losing a rear-guard action for basic bodily autonomy against traditionalist conservatives who would force them to bear children against their will, among other indignities.

As to the broader conversation, most people just don't care that much. Men are not generally threatened by trans men (or non-binary females) in their leagues or locker rooms, for reasons which should be fairly obvious.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

As to the broader conversation, most people just don't care that much. Men are not generally threatened by trans men (or non-binary females) in their leagues or locker rooms, for reasons which should be fairly obvious.

Probably worth mentioning that not all women share the TERF doom-and-gloom perspective on transwomen either.

TERF itself was coined as a term to distinguish this particular niche of women and feminists from those that aren't obsessed with excluding trans women.

 

[Ziggurat]

You may not care about trans men, but I would not be so comfortable assuming your blase attitude about them is universally shared.

I'm not interested in the opinions of actual transphobes, they can piss off. But that label gets applied to anyone who isn't on board with the activist agenda, and that's simply not accurate.

Even among the broader group of transphobes, the narrow focus on women only seems to mostly be a preoccupation of TERFs.

TERF is also not a useful term, it gets overused.

And you're still wrong. The focus on transwomen invading female spaces is because, as I already pointed out, male sexual predators exploit that opportunity. Female sexual predators don't. That makes a HUGE difference, and accounts for the difference in attention between these two issues. And again, you're still dancing around the issue of safety. You're pretending it doesn't exist, but it absolutely does. Plus, as already mentioned, this thread isn't about trans men.

Where you see more attention to trans-identifying females than males is the issue of childhood transition, and the spike in girls identifying as trans. But there's another thread for that already, so let's not pursue it further here.

 

[Ziggurat]

Probably worth mentioning that not all women share the TERF doom-and-gloom perspective on transwomen either.

Absolutely. There's a major class component to this as well. In particular, upper class women are at much less risk from male sexual predators than lower class women. They don't face the same potential consequences from the adoption of self ID. As a rather obvious example, they see no personal risk in allowing trans women in women's prisons, because they're never going to end up in prison. So it's no surprise that many upper class women in particular are on board with the trans activist agenda. But that doesn't really prove anything about the merits of anyone's position.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm not interested in the opinions of actual transphobes, they can piss off. But that label gets applied to anyone who isn't on board with the activist agenda, and that's simply not accurate.



TERF is also not a useful term, it gets overused.

And you're still wrong. The focus on transwomen invading female spaces is because, as I already pointed out, male sexual predators exploit that opportunity. Female sexual predators don't. That makes a HUGE difference, and accounts for the difference in attention between these two issues. And again, you're still dancing around the issue of safety. You're pretending it doesn't exist, but it absolutely does. Plus, as already mentioned, this thread isn't about trans men.

Where you see more attention to trans-identifying females than males is the issue of childhood transition, and the spike in girls identifying as trans. But there's another thread for that already, so let's not pursue it further here.

I trust you have very compelling data to show this is true. Surely it is easy to demonstrate this considering that trans inclusion has been policy/law in places for years now.

 

[Ziggurat]

I trust you have very compelling data to show this is true. Surely it is easy to demonstrate this considering that trans inclusion has been policy/law in places for years now.

You have been given many examples already. Stop playing games.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You have been given many examples already. Stop playing games.

I've seen anecdotes. What that's phrase skeptics say about anecdotes again?

This might shock you, but sex crimes existed before the recent controversy about trans people. Sharing anecdotes about predators attacking women in toilets or whatever isn't showing a cause-effect relationship between trans inclusive policy and women's safety.

 

[d4m10n]

Sharing anecdotes about predators attacking women in toilets or whatever isn't showing a cause-effect relationship between trans inclusive policy and women's safety.

When Wi Spa announces that they cannot keep people like Merager off the ladies floor because of trans inclusive public policy, that says something about cause-and-effect.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

When Wi Spa announces that they cannot keep people like Merager off the ladies floor because of trans inclusive public policy, that says something about cause-and-effect.

Probably not the best example because the accused in that case denies any guilt or wrongdoing and the case has not been heard.

 

[Ziggurat]

I've seen anecdotes.

But you can't understand them because they're not in the form of statistics.

And what exactly are you expecting, anyways? In the UK, they record crimes by transwomen as crimes by women. They don't make any distinction. So it's not possible to figure out totals based on official statistics. It's being deliberately obfuscated.

This might shock you, but sex crimes existed before the recent controversy about trans people.

Undoubtedly. And one of the obvious lessons from examining actual sex crimes is that sexual predators take advantage of vulnerabilities and opportunities.

Self ID creates obvious vulnerabilities and opportunities. Why would you think they wouldn't exploit them? Obviously they would. And from those "anecdotes", obviously they do.

Sharing anecdotes about predators attacking women in toilets or whatever isn't showing a cause-effect relationship between trans inclusive policy and women's safety.

Not even when that predator claims to be trans, and policy would prohibit them from being expelled from those spaces on that basis alone.

You really can't put two and two together.

 

[Ziggurat]

Probably not the best example because the accused in that case denies any guilt or wrongdoing and the case has not been heard.

No, it's a perfect example, precisely because this predator is using the law to try to protect their misbehavior. And if they get acquitted, that won't show they did nothing wrong, it will show that the law doesn't protect women.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No, it's a perfect example, precisely because this predator is using the law to try to protect their misbehavior. And if they get acquitted, that won't show they did nothing wrong, it will show that the law doesn't protect women.

Or maybe no misbehavior occurred. Hard to say until the evidence is presented at trial, dont ya think?

 

[The Atheist]

Let me get this straight... You're saying that you personally find yourself at a complete loss when you meet people?

That's such an egregious misrepresentation I can only presume it's deliberate.

I call shenanigans. You have a lady friend who presents as feminine ("least butch..."), but the majority of men assume she's a dude because she's taller than average? I doubt this very much.

I'll forgive that one, because I didn't go into specifics. Mea culpa for giving readers the benefit of intelligence.

She has a very deep voice and wears androgynous clothes.

 

[d4m10n]

Or maybe no misbehavior occurred. Hard to say until the evidence is presented at trial, dont ya think?

I think it will go uncontested at trial that Merager was in fact nude at the all nude spa. That leaves only the question of who had a legal right to be there on the women's floor.

If you believe self-i.d. is the best public policy, then you're sort of backed into a corner here. Merager has self-identified as a woman, so it's open and shut. Natal females will just have to get used to the new normal.