Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Emily's Cat]

But what about the data? Perhaps a similar number of females are being allowed into male prisons!

You need to show me the data that proves that there aren't a similar number of females being placed in male prison! Go on - show me the evidence of the thing that doesn't exist!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is there perhaps some selective deafness occurring here?

Trans women should have the facility to compete in women's categories in all sports at all levels and age-groups, EXCEPT a) at elite or sub-elite levels, and/or b) in contact sports where there would be a demonstrable reasonable risk of significant physical injury to cis women.

There's no selective deafness. We simply disagree with your pet position. For reasons we've gone through over and over and over again, which you just keep pretending don't exist.

I don't think you've thought this through.

So let's go through the entire progression. For the non-US among us, let me define some language. Elementary School spans from Kindergarten (age 5/6) to Fifth Grade (age 10/11). Middle School spans from Sixth Grade (age 11/12 to Eight Grade (13/14). High School spans from Ninth Grade (age 14/15) to 12th Grade (17/18). In some areas there can be a bit of squish - some areas have Middle School for only Sixth and Seventh, or only Seventh and Eight grades, but this is the most common separations. It more or less aligns with "mostly pre-pubertal", "in the process of attaining reproductive maturity", and "fully reproductively capable but still maturing".

For school sports, most sports become both competitive and sex-separated in Middle School. There's some competition among Elementary schools for sports, but it's not as common and not as intense. Middle is where we begin having extracurricular school teams, with try-outs, and frequently with a distinction between Junior Varsity and Varsity teams. In Middle, there are still a lot of non-competitive intramural teams. By High school, nearly all of the school teams are competitive JV or V teams, and there are few intra-mural teams.

A note on the term "competitive" in this context. Intra-mural teams are essentially open to anyone who wants to play, with very few people being excluded. They still participate against each other as well as against other schools. But they aren't part of a Competitive Circuit, involving play-off rosters, increased levels of competition at regional/state/national levels, and significantly less focus on trophies or anything resembling a competitor ranking system.

So now that we've got the basics out of the way... What is the impact of allowing transgender identified males to participate in female sports in "non-elite" school sports ?

This means that in Middle School, some males will be on the female JV and V teams. For each male included on those teams, there will be a female who is EXCLUDED from those teams. Those females will then miss out on the opportunity to practice and grow their skills, as well as the opportunity to engage in competition against other schools and athletes. You might say this is no big deal, but I disagree.

Without that middle school participation, those excluded females will be unlikely to participate in high school sports. Some of that will be because they have lost interest because they have been denied the ability to compete in middle school. Some of it will be because without that middle school practice and competition, they will not have grown their skills sufficiently.

So then... exclusion of females from female sports in middle school in favor of allowing males to compete on the female teams, reduces access to high school participation for females. Here we've already got a loss of opportunity for females.

In high school, if males are allowed to participate on female teams, this impact gets amplified. In High school, those athletes are being scouted for college athletics as well as continuing to grow and hone their skills. For every male who participates on a female team in High school... those are females who are being excluded from consideration for College teams. They will not be scouted, they will not be monitored, and they lose the opportunity for athletic scholarships.

Now, we have excluded females from female sports in both Middle and High school. We have provided expanded opportunities for males - they can participate in both male and female sports, whereas females are inarguably uncompetitive in male sports because biology is real.

College is the prime location for entry into professional athletics.

By actively allowing males to exclude females from female sports in Middle School... you are reducing significant opportunities for females in professional sports.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The only answer I’ve seen is that it would make transwomen athletes feel better. It’s at the expense of woman athletes, but that is deemed to not matter.

I wonder if TRAs realise how much sport, even at “sub-elite” level, means to many, many women, who train hard and give their all. Imagine how they feel when blown away by transwomen in second gear. I think their feelings matter a great deal.

But but but... those are just females! They don't matter when compared to the feelings of a select group of males! Males should be entitled to do what they want to do, to fulfill their desires! Females should just know that they're expected to step aside and give way to males!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you have a source for that?

JFC. It was big news, and it's easy to find. Use your own google for at least some really basic stuff. Hell, you don't even have to use google - you could just look back through the predecessor chapters of this very thread!

Honestly, I do get tired of this tactic.

Poster 1: <Opinion related to well known, well documented, well reported event>
Poster 2: Do you have a source for that? I mean, I personally haven't heard of it, and I can't be bothered to do even a teensy bit of research, so I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist and I'll just make the baseless assumption that Poster 1 is an exaggerating liar...

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't claim to know whether Yaniv was motivated by racism, misogyny, or the "human right" to be affirmed in her gender. Doesn't actually matter all that much to my analysis; women who perform intimate care on females ought to be allowed to choose their clients based on sex.

ETA: This reminds me of another recurring question in the space of sex-based rights.

Should a female patient be allowed to request a (natal) female doctor to perform cervical screening or other gynecological procedures?

https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1658557253161566210

I'm fairly confident that the TWAW crowd will answer this question in the negative, whereas conservatives and most second wave feminists will answer in the affirmative without much hesitation.

Ah yes, the ever handy "But how can you tell????" As if it's a huge mystery that the giant hands, broad shoulders, square jaw, adams apple, and five o'clock shadow person in a dress is actually a male.

The idea that females should just submit to having a male touch and handle our privates against our express requests, and all so that the male's feelings and privacy are "respected" is incredibly offensive.

Sure, sure, we need to respect the privacy and feelings of the transgender identified male medical provider who really, really wants to do intimate exams on females... but we shouldn't respect the privacy and feelings of the females who don't want that male doing the exam. They're not only placing the feelings of males above the feelings of females, they're also placing the feelings and desires of the medical provider above the feelings and desires of the patient.

ETA2: And now for some hilarious alarmism from the Xn right

https://twitter.com/ChristnNitemare/status/1659224196088569856

Bit surprised to learn that Target is teaching prepubescent boys how to tuck their junk.

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. That person's religion-based objection is a bit much...

But also, Target is selling clothing for children that incentivizes and supports very young males forcing their testicles up into their inguinal canals...

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you have a source for that?

For example:
https://www.outkick.com/penn-swimme...-with-fellow-transgender-swimmer-before-race/

 

[TurkeysGhost]

For example:
https://www.outkick.com/penn-swimme...-with-fellow-transgender-swimmer-before-race/

So the source is another swimmer's baseless speculation.

 

[Darat]

Ah yes, the ever handy "But how can you tell????" As if it's a huge mystery that the giant hands, broad shoulders, square jaw, adams apple, and five o'clock shadow person in a dress is actually a male.

The idea that females should just submit to having a male touch and handle our privates against our express requests, and all so that the male's feelings and privacy are "respected" is incredibly offensive.

Sure, sure, we need to respect the privacy and feelings of the transgender identified male medical provider who really, really wants to do intimate exams on females... but we shouldn't respect the privacy and feelings of the females who don't want that male doing the exam. They're not only placing the feelings of males above the feelings of females, they're also placing the feelings and desires of the medical provider above the feelings and desires of the patient.



...snip...

I don't know what the case in the USA is but in the UK you can refuse to have any particular person do a medical examination and request someone else, you do not need to give a reason. In the USA are you forced to have a particular medical profession examine you?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ah yes, the ever handy "But how can you tell????" As if it's a huge mystery that the giant hands, broad shoulders, square jaw, adams apple, and five o'clock shadow person in a dress is actually a male.

Seems only appropriate on a skeptics forum to point out that any transdar or gaydar is going to suffer from survivorship bias.

The trans people you can't clock at a glance don't factor into your perception. You could be surrounded by "passing" trans people all the time and not know it. Are all trans women obvious, or are you only noticing the obvious ones? How can you be sure?

There have been a few examples of weirdo transphobes confronting insufficiently feminine (however defined by the beholder) cis women in bathrooms or wherever and insisting they are actually trans. As I've pointed out before, given the relative scarcity of trans people in general, I imagine the false positives will occur at quite significant rates.

You gonna give your doctor a hard time is she doesn't wax her upper lip to get rid of a slight mustache or she's a bit too tall for your liking?

 

[d4m10n]

You gonna give your doctor a hard time is she doesn't wax her upper lip to get rid of a slight mustache or she's a bit too tall for your liking?

Should patients be permitted to ask for a doctor of their own sex or should they be discouraged from doing so on grounds of gender inclusion?

Target is selling clothing for children that incentivizes and supports very young males forcing their testicles up into their inguinal canals...

Imma need a credible source on this one; tend to assume everything on TikTok is made up.

 

[Ziggurat]

So the source is another swimmer's baseless speculation.

It's not baseless, athletes are very good judges of other athletes. And you can look up the times if you actually care. But you don't.

 

[d4m10n]

A University Fired 2 Employees for Including Their Pronouns in Emails

Administrators at Houghton, which is affiliated with a conservative branch of the Methodist Church, asked Ms. Zelaya and Mr. Wilmot, two residence hall directors, to remove the words “she/her” and “he/him” from their email signatures, saying they violated a new policy. When they refused to do so, both employees were fired, just weeks before the end of the semester.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/nyregion/houghton-university-employees-pronouns.html

 

[LondonJohn]

There's no selective deafness. We simply disagree with your pet position. For reasons we've gone through over and over and over again, which you just keep pretending don't exist.

*sigh*

Did you either accidentally or deliberately forget that my post was in direct response to the explicit accusation that:

It's obvious that TRAs have no idea how to square the circle of males competing as females in sports. All they can think of to do is misdirect and pretend ignorance.

(And that was notwithstanding the very deliberate misdirection of "males competing as females" subterfuge committed by theprestige in his challenge...)

PS: your aggressive wall-of-text "response" to my post is one of the very many sound reasons why I deign not to post very often in this cesspit any more.

 

[LondonJohn]

Seems only appropriate on a skeptics forum to point out that any transdar or gaydar is going to suffer from survivorship bias.

The trans people you can't clock at a glance don't factor into your perception. You could be surrounded by "passing" trans people all the time and not know it. Are all trans women obvious, or are you only noticing the obvious ones? How can you be sure?

There have been a few examples of weirdo transphobes confronting insufficiently feminine (however defined by the beholder) cis women in bathrooms or wherever and insisting they are actually trans. As I've pointed out before, given the relative scarcity of trans people in general, I imagine the false positives will occur at quite significant rates.

You gonna give your doctor a hard time is she doesn't wax her upper lip to get rid of a slight mustache or she's a bit too tall for your liking?

Exactly correct. As you say, anti-transgender individuals will without doubt suffer from badly malfunctioning "transdars" - they'll have missed many true positives, spotted a small number of true positives, and "identified" a good many false positives.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Imma need a credible source on this one; tend to assume everything on TikTok is made up.

Eh, further research indicates it's an adult bathing suit, not a kids one. Misrepresented on social media, whodathunkit?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems only appropriate on a skeptics forum to point out that any transdar or gaydar is going to suffer from survivorship bias.

The trans people you can't clock at a glance don't factor into your perception. You could be surrounded by "passing" trans people all the time and not know it. Are all trans women obvious, or are you only noticing the obvious ones? How can you be sure?

There have been a few examples of weirdo transphobes confronting insufficiently feminine (however defined by the beholder) cis women in bathrooms or wherever and insisting they are actually trans. As I've pointed out before, given the relative scarcity of trans people in general, I imagine the false positives will occur at quite significant rates.

You gonna give your doctor a hard time is she doesn't wax her upper lip to get rid of a slight mustache or she's a bit too tall for your liking?

Exactly correct. As you say, anti-transgender individuals will without doubt suffer from badly malfunctioning "transdars" - they'll have missed many true positives, spotted a small number of true positives, and "identified" a good many false positives.

Let me ask both of you some questions.

1) Do you have a hard time determining whether a non-transgender person is male or female?

For example, if you see a person with short hair wearing trousers, are you unable to discern whether that person is male or female at a glance? Do all humans look alike to you, with no observable differences by sex?

2) Do you believe that the majority of transgender identified males are exceptionally small males with extremely small feet and hands?

3) Do you believe that the majority of transgender identified females are exceptionally tall females with enormous feet and hands?

4) Do you often find yourself unable to distinguish between Annie Lennox and David Bowie?

5) If the female parent that gestated and birthed you puts on trousers, do you find yourself calling them "Dad"?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your argument relies on the false premise that humans have no sexually dimorphic features, and that on the whole we cannot distinguish male from female.

It is true that there may be some very few transgender identified males who successfully pass - and by passing they avoid notice. But you present your position as if that is the majority of transgender identified males... and it simply isn't.

I'm sure you will now go to "but how can you tell?!?!?! that there aren't a lot of transgender identified males that you mistake for females because they pass so incredibly well?

The answer is simple: How often do you, in your daily life, find yourself unable to tell whether a given stranger out in the world is male or female? Do you, personally, walk around constantly confused as to what sex other people are? Do you often find yourself flirting with someone only to find that they aren't the sex you thought they were? Is it an everyday occurrence for you to meet a new colleague and not know their sex at a glance?

No. None of those things are common occurrences for you, and you bloody well know it. Because humans are sexually dimorphic and we're EXTREMELY good at discerning the sex of other post-pubescent humans.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Let me ask both of you some questions.

1) Do you have a hard time determining whether a non-transgender person is male or female?

For example, if you see a person with short hair wearing trousers, are you unable to discern whether that person is male or female at a glance? Do all humans look alike to you, with no observable differences by sex?

2) Do you believe that the majority of transgender identified males are exceptionally small males with extremely small feet and hands?

3) Do you believe that the majority of transgender identified females are exceptionally tall females with enormous feet and hands?

4) Do you often find yourself unable to distinguish between Annie Lennox and David Bowie?

5) If the female parent that gestated and birthed you puts on trousers, do you find yourself calling them "Dad"?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your argument relies on the false premise that humans have no sexually dimorphic features, and that on the whole we cannot distinguish male from female.

It is true that there may be some very few transgender identified males who successfully pass - and by passing they avoid notice. But you present your position as if that is the majority of transgender identified males... and it simply isn't.

I'm sure you will now go to "but how can you tell?!?!?! that there aren't a lot of transgender identified males that you mistake for females because they pass so incredibly well?

The answer is simple: How often do you, in your daily life, find yourself unable to tell whether a given stranger out in the world is male or female? Do you, personally, walk around constantly confused as to what sex other people are? Do you often find yourself flirting with someone only to find that they aren't the sex you thought they were? Is it an everyday occurrence for you to meet a new colleague and not know their sex at a glance?

No. None of those things are common occurrences for you, and you bloody well know it. Because humans are sexually dimorphic and we're EXTREMELY good at discerning the sex of other post-pubescent humans.

Much of gender is socially coded by clothing and other such easily changeable factors, and it's quite common in fact for people not following social norms in this regard to be misidentified. Butch lesbians, for example, are frequently misidentified as men.

There is more than enough variation among the sexes to make trying to identify sexual dimorphism at a glance a very risky proposition.

There are probably more cis women with larger than average hands than there are trans women. There are probably more tall and broad shouldered cis women than trans women.

This is exactly the kind of reductionism that is common in transphobic circles that blows back onto cis women. In the interest in policing the female sex, transphobes subject insufficiently feminine (however defined by these weirdos) to suspicion. If you're a cis woman who deviates too much from the average some freak is going to scream at you in a public toilet, you know, for feminism reasons.

You are way overconfident in your ability to tell at a glance, I hope it doesn't lead you to any embarrassing social situations.

 

[Wildy]

JFC. It was big news, and it's easy to find. Use your own google for at least some really basic stuff. Hell, you don't even have to use google - you could just look back through the predecessor chapters of this very thread!

Honestly, I do get tired of this tactic.

Poster 1: <Opinion related to well known, well documented, well reported event>
Poster 2: Do you have a source for that? I mean, I personally haven't heard of it, and I can't be bothered to do even a teensy bit of research, so I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist and I'll just make the baseless assumption that Poster 1 is an exaggerating liar...

Or perhaps I asked because I did look and didn't find anything "well documented" about Thomas throwing that race and was wondering where you got that claim.

For example:
https://www.outkick.com/penn-swimme...-with-fellow-transgender-swimmer-before-race/

Which is a) an unconfirmed allegation and b) not about the race that was being discussed.

 

[d4m10n]

As you say, anti-transgender individuals will without doubt suffer from badly malfunctioning "transdars" - they'll have missed many true positives, spotted a small number of true positives, and "identified" a good many false positives.

This is mere speculation on a subject where it would be considered unethical to actually run a trial.

 

[Aber]

Much of gender is socially coded by clothing and other such easily changeable factors, and it's quite common in fact for people not following social norms in this regard to be misidentified. Butch lesbians, for example, are frequently misidentified as men.

Citation please.