Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Emily's Cat]

You're not accounting for slots on girls sports that would be, according to your accounting, made available by the existence of trans boys. Every trans boy athlete would be one more opportunity slot for girls to use, and one less slot for boys.

A zero-sum accounting of this doesn't make much sense once you acknowledge the existence of both trans boys and trans girls.

Transgender identified females are still female. And as such, they are simply not competitive against males. Taking testosterone may increase their muscle density... but you remember that list of all of the physcial difference between males and females that contribute to the athletic advantage of males? Yeah, females taking testosterone doesn't change any of that either. They are still female.

 

[Emily's Cat]

My point remains that there are educational issues at play in school environments that are not a factor in pro sports.

That educational aspect is already fully met via Physical Education requirements in school.

There's a reason why youth sports are often organized through the educational system and not solely through athletic clubs that are not publicly funded.

Yeah, because that's where the kids in that age bracket already are. Duh.

Your personal distaste for them aside,

Don't attribute emotions to me based on your own false beliefs and assumptions.

trans kids have as much right to a public education (including participation in sports) as any other student,

Absolutely, and they gain that education through classes, including PE.

and the school owes them a legal duty that a pro sports league would not. I was merely pointing out that schools sports have special considerations in any public policy debate that don't apply to strictly private organizations.

Your demand displaces and disadvantages females while increasing the opportunities for males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not seeing how a general rule about non-discrimination wouldn't also similarly apply to cis-men bigots who insisted on excluding trans men.

You may not care about trans men, but they do exist and have similar rights to nondiscrimination among cis men.

Females do NOT have a right to be allowed into male-specific intimate spaces.

 

[The Atheist]

But yes, exceptions like Pejic should be accommodated with women. The vast majority should not.

Care to show the evidence that says the "vast majority" of trans women are a threat to women?

I bet I know and have known a lot more trans women than you.

Fa'afafine have fully functioning penises, are generally very large people, and are zero threat to women.

But it does demonstrate that we shouldn't try to have simple, one rule fits all approaches to complex situations.

I find it incredible that that isn't the position in this entire debate.

Then send them somewhere else, or allow a case-by-case consideration with input from the female prisoners with which they would be housed.

Wow.

Did you read what you wrote after you'd written it? You seriously want the prisoners to run the prisons?

If the male prison is not safe for a particular subset of males, then take steps to make it safe, or develop a third space alternative.

I have been saying that, but I did want to highlight your continued use of "males" for trans women.

I started the thread all those years ago on the basis that trans women aren't women, but I'd also stress they're not men.

Nothing is possible when it's self-declaration running the game, without clinical diagnosis and without a requirement for surgery.

A requirement for GRS is plain discrimination. Some trans women don't want the surgery, and most of those who do can't afford it.

You're making no sense on GRS anyway, because you made this comment:

...full surgery including penectomy and orchiectomy doesn't diminish the differences in physicality, nor does it alter offending patterns...

You're looking for a dollar each way. "Prove you're trans by cutting your dick off, but it's not going to make me change my mind anyway."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Females do NOT have a right to be allowed into male-specific intimate spaces.

What are you talking about?

These non-discrimination laws that are frequently cited as a problem would absolutely also apply to trans men wanting to access male only spaces.

 

[The Atheist]

Looks like a few people will be thoroughly cheered up by Ron De Santis' new bill criminalising people using a bathroom that doesn't match their birth gender: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/desantis-anti-trans-bathroom_n_645964eae4b094269baf0df1

 

[The Atheist]

As Slovakia goes a step further and bans even being trans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/17/slovakia-block-legal-recognition-trans-people-lgbtq

 

[Ziggurat]

Trans men exist too, you know, and are very much interested parties when it comes to these discussions about trans inclusion.

There's a reason that we don't spend much time on that issue, though. It's been discussed before on this thread, you aren't actually bringing anything new to the discussion even if it feels new to you.

Female sexual predators exist, and are much more common than is usually recognized. But here's the thing: patterns of female sexual predation don't match male patterns. One of the consequences of this is that female sexual predators don't have any incentive to pose as males in order to engage in predatory behavior. It doesn't really help them engage in their predation. But posing as females really can help male sexual predators engage in predation.

So the situation isn't remotely symmetric. And everyone knows that. That's why granting access for transmen isn't really causing problems, even though it is causing problems with blanket access for transwomen.

 

[theprestige]

Round and round we go. When the TRAs return to "but what about transmen?" we know that "it's the same as homosexuality [it isn't]" and "it's the same as race [it isn't]" won't be far behind.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There's a reason that we don't spend much time on that issue, though. It's been discussed before on this thread, you aren't actually bringing anything new to the discussion even if it feels new to you.

Female sexual predators exist, and are much more common than is usually recognized. But here's the thing: patterns of female sexual predation don't match male patterns. One of the consequences of this is that female sexual predators don't have any incentive to pose as males in order to engage in predatory behavior. It doesn't really help them engage in their predation. But posing as females really can help male sexual predators engage in predation.

So the situation isn't remotely symmetric. And everyone knows that. That's why granting access for transmen isn't really causing problems, even though it is causing problems with blanket access for transwomen.

Who was talking about sexual predators? This exchange was about sports, please do keep up.

I brought it up specifically in the example of EC's complaint about zero sum numbers of scholarships or slots on teams.

For every trans boy playing on the boys side of the equation, that's one less person girls are in competition with for a limited number slots on teams or scholarships or whatever.

EC seemed to be describing this as an entirely one way street, but it's not.

 

[Ziggurat]

I brought it up specifically in the example of EC's complaint about zero sum numbers of scholarships.

For every trans boy playing on the boys side of the equation, that's one less person girls are in competition with for a limited number slots on teams or scholarships or whatever.

That doesn't balance, because the trans boys won't win any scholarships from the boys, and the trans girls are still at a huge advantage that won't be compensated for by lowering the number of girls they're competing against. The situation isn't symmetric.

EC seemed to be describing this as an entirely one way street, but it's not.

Yes, it is, because males have an athletic advantage over females, not vice versa.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That doesn't balance, because the trans boys won't win any scholarships from the boys, and the trans girls are still at a huge advantage that won't be compensated for by lowering the number of girls they're competing against. The situation isn't symmetric.

Don't you think you're being a bit presumptuous here?

 

[Emily's Cat]

What are you talking about?

These non-discrimination laws that are frequently cited as a problem would absolutely also apply to trans men wanting to access male only spaces.

You're right. They absolutely would exclude females from male-only spaces, regardless of how those females identify.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Who was talking about sexual predators? This exchange was about sports, please do keep up.

I brought it up specifically in the example of EC's complaint about zero sum numbers of scholarships or slots on teams.

For every trans boy playing on the boys side of the equation, that's one less person girls are in competition with for a limited number slots on teams or scholarships or whatever.

EC seemed to be describing this as an entirely one way street, but it's not.

You seem to be under the impression that there's an equivalent number of transgender identified females who are on male teams, as the other way around. As if somehow a female taking testosterone will result in them growing taller with bigger hands and feet, will change their pelvis, they'll get bigger lungs and heart, etc.

But in reality... it doesn't happen that way.

 

[TomB]

Who was talking about sexual predators? This exchange was about sports, please do keep up.

I brought it up specifically in the example of EC's complaint about zero sum numbers of scholarships or slots on teams.

For every trans boy playing on the boys side of the equation, that's one less person girls are in competition with for a limited number slots on teams or scholarships or whatever.

EC seemed to be describing this as an entirely one way street, but it's not.

The net effect is that more team spots are taken by biological males and fewer by biological females. That's because trans men (biologically female) are less likely to make the male team. So the spot cleared by the trans-woman athlete on the male team does not go to the trans-man, but to another cis-man. (Generally. there are always exceptions.)

So a female potential athlete, who transitions for the most part removes themselves from the athlete pool. The male potential athlete who transitions inserts both removes themselves from the male athlete pool and inserts themselves into the female athlete pool. It's not a balanced equation.

That said, there are a few females (trans or not) who are able to play on the men's teams. Usually in sports that don't have a female counterpart, like wrestling or football. And yes, that might deprive a boy of a place on the team. It is notable, however that the same accommodation is rarely made for a male who wants to play on the female team even if there is no corresponding male sport. (Around here, volleyball is an example. Huge female sport in jr. high and high school. No male teams at all, and no local male clubs.)

It's a complicated issue, which I think should be left for sports leagues to make informed decisions on, not lawyers and politicians. My personal opinion is that decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis by the governing boards of each respective sport.

One thing to make note of is that, as I understand it, the leagues and the governing bodies that school sports teams participate in are not government entities. In Illinois, for example, the IHSA is governed by a board elected from and by high school principals of member schools. Some public, some private. the IHSA (and it's junior high counerparts. There are at least two.) is, in turn, a member of the National Federation of State High School Associations. Also, a non-government association. (Just as the NCAA is not a government body.)

 

[d4m10n]

Don't you think you're being a bit presumptuous here?

I'd be interested in hearing of cases in which trans men (natal females) won athletic events or scholarships competing against natal males. I imagine it does happen sometimes.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You seem to be under the impression that there's an equivalent number of transgender identified females who are on male teams, as the other way around. As if somehow a female taking testosterone will result in them growing taller with bigger hands and feet, will change their pelvis, they'll get bigger lungs and heart, etc.

But in reality... it doesn't happen that way.

Do you have numbers then? I know trans women get all the headlines, but that's hardly a reliable way to survey the population. Are there more trans girls trying to play K-12 sports than trans boys?

 

[lionking]

Look, I generally appreciate your support and your views.

But I'm also completely fed up with males making sweeping decisions about what females should be FORCED to accommodate, without bothering to actually talk to females and determine whether or not we agree.

Males are deciding that some males are not sufficiently male to be counted as males, and should be relegated to the realm of "other" where they've placed females.

I’m pretty sure recalling you saying that you would accept transwomen that pass well enough for women into women’s spaces. Pejic would be one of those in my opinion.

Also, settle down a bit. I have spoken to many women about this.

 

[lionking]

Who was talking about sexual predators? This exchange was about sports, please do keep up.

I brought it up specifically in the example of EC's complaint about zero sum numbers of scholarships or slots on teams.

For every trans boy playing on the boys side of the equation, that's one less person girls are in competition with for a limited number slots on teams or scholarships or whatever.

EC seemed to be describing this as an entirely one way street, but it's not.

And how successful do you think post puberty trans boys would be in athletic competitions against boys? How many would get anywhere near scholarships?

You really do not know much about this issue.

 

[Ziggurat]

Don't you think you're being a bit presumptuous here?

Nope. Not based on performance, anyways. I don't think you really understand how big of a performance there actually is between the sexes. I suppose it's possible a few transboys might get scholarships because they're trans and somebody wants to be seen as supporting trans athletes, but not much to be done about that.