Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[d4m10n]

I assume de la Cretaz must have been talking about "fairness" in the sporting context, rather than "fairness" as a synonym for treating people ethically or justly in society more broadly, since she deprecated the former for the sake of the latter.

 

[Elaedith]

How can someone write about trans inclusion in sports without debating ideas of fairness?

Because fairness is determined by deciding who is more 'marginalized' according to the official narrative, then 'centering' them (meaning they automatically win over less marginalized). Evidence is then correct when it supports the pre-determined conclusion (TW have no unfair advantage) and if it doesn't, it must reflect the positionality of the oppressors who produced the evidence, and is therefore wrong.

 

[TomB]

How can someone write about trans inclusion in sports without debating ideas of fairness?

You can't.

All of the arguments for trans-women to play in female leagues really amount to arguments for not having separate leagues. Which, of course, means excluding females from sports.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You can't.

All of the arguments for trans-women to play in female leagues really amount to arguments for not having separate leagues. Which, of course, means excluding females from sports.

Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit? There aren't enough trans women to totally displace cis-gendered women athletes, even if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage.

 

[Lplus]

Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit? There aren't enough trans women to totally displace cis-gendered women athletes, even if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage.

They wouldn't need to totally displace them, just discourage them sufficiently that they give up the sport anyway.

 

[Ziggurat]

Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit? There aren't enough trans women to totally displace cis-gendered women athletes, even if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage.

They don't have to totally displace all of the athletes. It's enough to just displace them from the podium to ruin the sport.

And what do you mean by "if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage"? That's not an assumption, that's a well known biological fact that biological males have innate athletic advantages over females. Do you not accept that biological males have innate athletic advantages over females? Or do you not accept that it's unfair?

 

[Manger Douse]

, even if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage.

Are males having no physical advantage over females another trans-fact^tm?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Are males having no physical advantage over females another trans-fact^tm?

I imagine it varies wildly based on the sport and the individual in question, especially when it comes to the exact details of their medical history.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are males having no physical advantage over females another trans-fact^tm?

"Misogynists always claim that men are better than women at sports.

But if that’s the case, how come Laurel Hubbard only started winning gold medals *after* she transitioned?"
- Titania McGrath

 

[d4m10n]

I wonder why USA swimming keeps two sets of record books.

Guess we'll never know.

 

[Manger Douse]

I imagine it varies wildly based on the sport and the individual in question.

So you don't know ? Trans-fact^tm it is then

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And what do you mean by "if you accept the assumption that they have some innate unfair advantage"? That's not an assumption, that's a well known biological fact that biological males have innate athletic advantages over females. Do you not accept that biological males have innate athletic advantages over females? Or do you not accept that it's unfair?

I was under the impression there was quite a bit of disagreement about how long exactly trans women should be on HRT before being considered on a level playing field. I imagine age of when HRT was taken (especially if pre-puberty transition occurred) would matter quite a bit, but that's pure speculation on my part.

I will admit I am not particularly well read on this specific topic.

Edit: This study on US military servicemembers (a rare population in which physical fitness is regularly tested) found that 1 year was not enough time to totally eliminate any gender performance advantage, but found that after two years performance was approaching parity with their cis-gendered peers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764

 

[Ziggurat]

I imagine it varies wildly based on the sport

The size of the advantage varies somewhat, but it's a sizeable advantage in almost every sport. Certain women's gymnastics events which take advantage of greater spinal flexibility are one of the few exceptions.

and the individual in question,

It's true that some women can beat some men, but it's also not relevant. Athletic competition is about the upper end of the spectrum, and there's little to no overlap there.

especially when it comes to the exact details of their medical history.

If you're talking about whether they transitioned pre or post puberty, that does make a difference. But even pre-puberty transition doesn't remove all the male biological advantages. And trans advocates aren't satisfied with allowing only pre-puberty transitions.

 

[Ziggurat]

I was under the impression there was quite a bit of disagreement about how long exactly trans women should be on HRT before being considered on a level playing field.

Yes, there is a lot of disagreement. Primarily by people who don't know what the hell they're talking about. HRT reduces muscle mass, but muscle mass isn't the only significant athletic advantage, and HRT doesn't get rid of others.

Edit: This study on US military servicemembers (a rare population in which physical fitness is regularly tested) found that 1 year was not enough time to totally eliminate any gender performance advantage, but found that after two years performance was approaching parity with their cis-gendered peers.

Servicemembers aren't athletes. For the most part, all you need to do for fitness levels is whatever you need to pass the requirements, you don't get any significant reward for exceeding the requirements. Transwomen who have officially transitioned are held to the women's standards, so why would you expect them to do any better than other women when they don't need to? That says nothing about their ability to.

This is an example of journalists not knowing what they're talking about. Really basic facts about athletic ability don't even occur to them.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's true that some women can beat some men, but it's also not relevant. Athletic competition is about the upper end of the spectrum, and there's little to no overlap there.

Seems to me this isn't true. Much of the controversy has to do with school sports, for example, which many a non-elite student athletes take part. It's an educational experience, even for those with no future in more elite competition.

 

[TomB]

Because fairness is determined by deciding who is more 'marginalized' according to the official narrative, then 'centering' them (meaning they automatically win over less marginalized). Evidence is then correct when it supports the pre-determined conclusion (TW have no unfair advantage) and if it doesn't, it must reflect the positionality of the oppressors who produced the evidence, and is therefore wrong.

Regarding the highlighted....

Two things that cannot be true at the same time:

1. Males (men) have an advantage over women.
2. Trans-women have no advantage over cis-women.

If trans-women, who are biologically male, have no advantage over biological females, there should be no statistical difference between male and female populations. "Populations" is an important word here. the range of capability of the populations may overlap, but they are statistically separate populations. If that were the case, it would not suggest that trans-women should participate in female leagues, but rather that there should not be separate leagues for women/females.

But we know that there are statistical differences between the male and female populations. What would need to be demonstrated is that trans-women are part of the female population rather than the male population.

I'm not entirely opposed to that happening on an individual basis. How this could be done, I don't know. I'd leave that up to leagues based on scientific estimates of the effects of treatment on relevant performance.

This is somewhat similar to positions put forward by LondonJohn, except he places the onus on leagues to cite evidence that they do have an advantage. I take the opposite approach. My reasoning being that there are rules in place due to population differences (male/female). A trans-woman is still biologically male and is therefore asking for an exception to the classification system. They must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the league that the transition process has affected them in such a way as to merit reclassification. And remember, transition is a process, not a point event.

In shorter terms, if you are asking for an exception, you need to be able to justify it based upon the rationale of the rule you are seeking exemption from.

And it becomes hard, because such justification could easily amount to "demonstrate that you have no chance of winning."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Servicemembers aren't athletes. For the most part, all you need to do for fitness levels is whatever you need to pass the requirements, you don't get any significant reward for exceeding the requirements. Transwomen who have officially transitioned are held to the women's standards, so why would you expect them to do any better than other women when they don't need to? That says nothing about their ability to.

This is an example of journalists not knowing what they're talking about. Really basic facts about athletic ability don't even occur to them.

I was under the impression that high PT scores were useful for those seeking advancement and placement into specialty programs, so maxing out your PT score is desirable.

 

[TomB]

I was under the impression there was quite a bit of disagreement about how long exactly trans women should be on HRT before being considered on a level playing field. I imagine age of when HRT was taken (especially if pre-puberty transition occurred) would matter quite a bit, but that's pure speculation on my part.

I will admit I am not particularly well read on this specific topic.

Edit: This study on US military servicemembers (a rare population in which physical fitness is regularly tested) found that 1 year was not enough time to totally eliminate any gender performance advantage, but found that after two years performance was approaching parity with their cis-gendered peers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764

It also said that after two years, trans-women's running speeds were still 12% faster.

Demonstration of sufficient transition effect would vary from sport to sport.

 

[TomB]

Seems to me this isn't true. Much of the controversy has to do with school sports, for example, which many a non-elite student athletes take part. It's an educational experience, even for those with no future in more elite competition.

While there are "non-elite" athletes competing in school sport, it is still the beginning of elite-level sports. That's the whole problem with the elite/non-elite distinction. There is no clear demarcation between the two.

School sports, even in Jr. High, are where college and professional recruitment begins.

 

[Olmstead]

How would one even measure a "level playing field"? What's the difference between a very average trans woman who can compete at an elite level of women's sports solely due to the advantages of a male body and an elite trans woman who has had her performance reduced just right?

And that's the roughest of comparisons. If we take into account the very small margins that exist between elite athletes, the whole idea becomes ridiculous.