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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Emily's Cat said:
Ran across an interesting article about how the transgender activists are fictionalizing Maori history in order to appropriate that history in support of their objectives.

https://quillette.com/2023/05/04/fictionalizing-indigenous-history-in-the-name-of-gender-activism/
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In so doing, these activists are pretending that concepts such as “gender affirmation” have always existed in Te Reo. This is obviously contradictory: If these ideas had “always” existed, today’s activists wouldn’t have to invent new words for them.

I had read this and was struck by the above as a remarkably straightforward debunking of the nonsense. New Zealand is in the grip of designing a confusing pidgin language that wastes time and energy, and holds back Maori youth who fill prisons precisely because they are often functionally illiterate. Slightly off topic but in context for the discussion.
 
Manger Douse said:
You going to back that up or is this another trans-fact?
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Sure, didn't realize this wasn't common knowledge.

https://nhchc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/vv-29-1_ptr_a8_122-136.pdf

Page 128 of this report details where homeless people, who experience significantly more criminal violence than their non-homeless peers, reported being victims of violence. 13% said at shelters, which is lower than on the streets, but higher than in abandoned buildings.

Homeless people are often targeted by other homeless people for theft and violence, so it's not surprising that shelters themselves are hotbeds for criminal activity.

Risk of being attacked is one of the reasons cited by homeless people that avoid shelters.

Safety and security concerns are typically the top reasons cited by homeless people who avoid the shelters.

“Things would get stolen. People could pop your locker. It was a little hectic, you know, and that's when a lot of people were smoking the synthetic weed stuff. It was just crazy all around,” said Bray, sitting in a wheelchair on a Midtown sidewalk. “I had a knife pulled on me. I was robbed in there. I don't even know how they got a knife in there because they got to go through a metal detector.”
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https://gothamist.com/news/homeless-new-yorkers-tell-why-they-avoid-shelters-the-drama-is-part-of-it

Anecdotally a person I know who spent a shortish period homeless was in fact assaulted at a shelter. She had apparently violated some unspoken pecking order when signing up for social services, and someone who took offense held her up outside the shelter and tore out chunks of her hair with pruning shears. Fun stuff.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Reasonable translation for the hidden subtext:

"homeless shelters are often dangerous places, so lets make them even more dangerous, but let's be really selective and make sure they're only more dangerous for females, not for males."
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I am merely pointing out that an anecdote about danger in a place generally known for danger is not really proving much about trans people.

Shelters are the dumping grounds for people in the ragged edges of society, including lots of people with inclinations to violence or drug addiction or severe mental illness or whatever.

Cherry picking out anecdotes when the aggressors are you preferred undesirable is not a useful exercise unless you're motivated by prejudice.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Sure, didn't realize this wasn't common knowledge.

https://nhchc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/vv-29-1_ptr_a8_122-136.pdf

Page 128 of this report details where homeless people, who experience significantly more criminal violence than their non-homeless peers, reported being victims of violence. 13% said at shelters, which is lower than on the streets, but higher than in abandoned buildings.

Homeless people are often targeted by other homeless people for theft and violence, so it's not surprising that shelters themselves are hotbeds for criminal activity.

Risk of being attacked is one of the reasons cited by homeless people that avoid shelters.



https://gothamist.com/news/homeless-new-yorkers-tell-why-they-avoid-shelters-the-drama-is-part-of-it

Anecdotally a person I know who spent a shortish period homeless was in fact assaulted at a shelter. She had apparently violated some unspoken pecking order when signing up for social services, and someone who took offense held her up outside the shelter and tore out chunks of her hair with pruning shears. Fun stuff.
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Women are focused on harm reduction.
To themselves.
To other women.
Your narrative offers no help in their aim, but seems to say personal harm can happen anywhere, so prepare for it to happen everywhere.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Sure, didn't realize this wasn't common knowledge.

https://nhchc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/vv-29-1_ptr_a8_122-136.pdf

Page 128 of this report details where homeless people, who experience significantly more criminal violence than their non-homeless peers, reported being victims of violence. 13% said at shelters, which is lower than on the streets, but higher than in abandoned buildings.

Homeless people are often targeted by other homeless people for theft and violence, so it's not surprising that shelters themselves are hotbeds for criminal activity.

Risk of being attacked is one of the reasons cited by homeless people that avoid shelters.



https://gothamist.com/news/homeless-new-yorkers-tell-why-they-avoid-shelters-the-drama-is-part-of-it

Anecdotally a person I know who spent a shortish period homeless was in fact assaulted at a shelter. She had apparently violated some unspoken pecking order when signing up for social services, and someone who took offense held her up outside the shelter and tore out chunks of her hair with pruning shears. Fun stuff.
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I think we're all well aware that homeless shelters can be dangerous places but you made the claim that "trans inclusion has not changed that" - so are they less dangerous or more dangerous since going unisex? Did trans inclusion change that?
 
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d4m10n said:
Some would surely argue that the thread title itself counts as anti-LGBT rhetoric.
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They have already.

Let me quickly count how many ***** I give...

Nah, still zero.

That's my point - they're not women, they'll never be women, and the sooner they accept that, the better we will all be.

My solution remains the one I've mentioned many times - the "third gender" option. I don't see what they lose by it.
 
Manger Douse said:
I am well aware that homeless shelters can be dangerous places - you made the claim that "trans inclusion has not changed that" - so are they less dangerous or more dangerous since going unisex? Did trans inclusion change that?
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A sloppy overstatement on my part. I should say that there's no evidence that trans inclusion has changed that. The evidence of the harms of trans exclusion is overwhelming and undeniable.

Given the recent example of the bathroom panic that turned out to be nothing more than the frothy imagination of bigots, I assume the assertion of a trans menace in shelters is likewise entirely imagined. Feel free to change that assumption with evidence.
 
Samson said:
Women are focused on harm reduction.
To themselves.
To other women.
Your narrative offers no help in their aim, but seems to say personal harm can happen anywhere, so prepare for it to happen everywhere.
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Unless those women are trans inclusive, in which case the bigots know what's best.

It would be nice to have an acknowledgement that cis women are not a monolith on reviling trans women. I know this is a discussion forum so it's routine to speak of these issues broadly, but the "defender of all woman-kind" trope that transphobes like to cloak themselves in should not pass without remark.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Unless those women are trans inclusive, in which case the bigots know what's best.

It would be nice to have an acknowledgement that cis women are not a monolith on reviling trans women. I know this is a discussion forum so it's routine to speak of these issues broadly, but the "defender of all woman-kind" trope that transphobes like to cloak themselves in should not pass without remark.
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Not sure what you mean by transphobe.
Language is a fundamental field of interest to the aging demograph posting here. I note that women are insistent that they will not be burdened with a compound construct such as cis woman. Why should they be?
 
Samson said:
Not sure what you mean by transphobe.
Language is a fundamental field of interest to the aging demograph posting here. I note that women are insistent that they will not be burdened with a compound construct such as cis woman. Why should they be?
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*some women. If you're so interested in language this seems a significant omission.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
A sloppy overstatement on my part. I should say that there's no evidence that trans inclusion has changed that. The evidence of the harms of trans exclusion is overwhelming and undeniable.

Given the recent example of the bathroom panic that turned out to be nothing more than the frothy imagination of bigots, I assume the assertion of a trans menace in shelters is likewise entirely imagined. Feel free to change that assumption with evidence.
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If you could be bothered looking at this thread a little deeper you will find that these assertions of your are utter crap.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
*some women. If you're so interested in language this seems a significant omission.
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I have not met a woman that would embrace the obligation to define as cis woman on a document.
In fairness, if I put it to them, they would have no idea what I was talking about. The common citizenry are unsophisticated of course.
 
Samson said:
I have not met a woman that would embrace the obligation to define as cis woman on a document.
In fairness, if I put it to them, they would have no idea what I was talking about. The common citizenry are unsophisticated of course.
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Have you met them all? Otherwise your experience says more about you than anything broader.
 
TurkeysGhost said:
Have you met them all? Otherwise your experience says more about you than anything broader.
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I am thinking of my dead mother who was a 60s feminist.
She and her friends would have made great play of parodying any jerks who would tack on cis
 
TurkeysGhost said:
It would be nice to have an acknowledgement that cis women are not a monolith on reviling trans women.
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Leaving aside the "reviling" strawman*, nice for whom? Nice for the TRA position? It hasn't been nice for TRAs in this thread any of the other times it's been acknowledged. None of them have behaved any nicer to anyone else as a result.

In fact, the problem of AGP colonization of feminist thought has been addressed more than once in this thread already. It is known. No need to keep acknowledging it.

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*Which we know is TRA jargon for "questioning the trans orthodoxy on sceptical, scientific, and humanitarian grounds".
 
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