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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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I see that Scotland discusses a GRC or a gender recognition certificate

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63956604

New Zealand seems to have gone full mythology and decided the birth certificate is official. This leads to passports, drivers licences and so on being issued to men masquerading as women. I'm not sure how this pans out internationally, since England rejected Scotland's big idea as I understand it.
Sorry, a bit stream of consciousness...
 
I imagine it might not work out too well in Indo, Uganda, Saudi and quite a few other countries.

Stick to the islands would be my advice.
I assume it has all been thoroughly worked through for a seamless introduction of New Zealand men into these far climes planning to pass as international women of mystery.
 
No, it's a case of not even thinking about it. Other countries don't give a crap about little NZ, and if a Kiwi trans woman with a penis has sex with a bloke in one of the countries I mentioned, they're quite possibly going to be executed for homosexual sex.
 
No, it's a case of not even thinking about it. Other countries don't give a crap about little NZ, and if a Kiwi trans woman with a penis has sex with a bloke in one of the countries I mentioned, they're quite possibly going to be executed for homosexual sex.
Do you think the newly minted birth certificate is followed by a passport in the chosen sex?
I don't know.
 
Do you think the newly minted birth certificate is followed by a passport in the chosen sex?
I don't know.

If it’s anything like here, it has to be. A birth certificate plus other identity documents is the first step to a passport.
 
If it’s anything like here, it has to be. A birth certificate plus other identity documents is the first step to a passport.
Do you have sex self ID though?
Actually a birth certificate is the only document needed for NZ
 
Interesting interview with Tim Minchin in today's Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2...al-health-i-feel-gaslit-groundhog-day-matilda

This bit may be relevant:

“I keep watching liberals assert stuff. And there’s this backfire effect. There are unintended consequences to the pushing-through of our ideals.

“What I’m anxious about is that in our attempts to push forward social justice we are losing people. We’re insisting people catch up very quickly. And when they fail to, they find themselves in opposition. If you tell people that they have to come on board very quickly with new ideas of social justice, and you don’t seduce them, if you simply demand it, it doesn’t work. They’re gonna look for another narrative. They’re gonna look for someone who makes them feel all right for not being on board with that **** … So a Trump comes along, and finds success by saying, ‘I give you permission to **** all that off.’”

Minchin removes his cap and pushes back his hair. He does this a few times, a gesture of mounting frustration. “Where I think politics affects my mental health is that I feel gaslit. It feels like everyone’s playacting. On the right, it’s the playacting of pretending you’re not wealthy, the ‘common man’ stuff, the skullduggery of that. And on the left, it’s the idea that all of us perform this self-protecting brand [of politics] on social media, then go home, have dinner, and roll our eyes … I’ve been accused of drifting right. But, it’s like, hold on! I’ve spent my entire career criticising illogic. I feel like I’m still doing that, except that the religion I now see a problem with is identity fundamentalism. I feel like that is more damaging than monotheism. I don’t think my values have changed.”

Whoever does think their values have changed? From inside our own heads, it always looks as if the scenery is shifting, not us. I sketch out for Minchin my theory about political righteousness. Liberals, long used to the comfortable high of supposing they were on the right side of history, got addicted to that drug, and are now suffering the effects of its withdrawal. Younger liberals might just have cut off their supply.

Minchin nods. “People under 30 have always been incredibly passionate,” he says. “And they’ve always been a little bit dumb. Under 30? You’re passionate but you don’t actually know quite enough. Now we’ve made a mode of communication where those people have a huge amount of power, to have people lose their jobs or whatever. And as a 47-year-old, mostly what I see is immaturity with a gun.”

Isn’t that what Minchin practised, as a young comedian?

“Immaturity with a microphone,” he nods, “yeah.”
 
New Zealand seems to have gone full mythology and decided the birth certificate is official. This leads to passports, drivers licences and so on being issued to men masquerading as women.
I'm going to sound a bit naive here, but so what? Will this somehow have knock-on effects in formerly single-sex spaces?
 
I'm going to sound a bit naive here, but so what? Will this somehow have knock-on effects in formerly single-sex spaces?
It will make it harder, make no difference, or make it easier as a logical statement.
Rule out first two options and what is left?

Here is a link to what the wife of a senior lawyer who is head of the criminal cases review commission says

It is exactly the same as objecting to Maori women and children being blocked from using female toilets 100 years ago.

This is not a fit statement for an 8 year old to make but a deliberate fiction for effect. Around minute 3

https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/th...3814/parker-s-visit-poses-plenty-of-questions

I listened again and Stephen Franks is scathing of his former parliamentary colleague Deborah Coddington.
 
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On the other hand, Emily's Cat DOES say that taking away the entire ******* concept of female will lead to a regressive theocracy. It's just that in this case, the godhead is gender identity and transhumanism. But it already has religious catechisms, and it already treats unbelievers as heretics who need to be ostracized, punished, and reeducated.


You do realise (or do you, or do you choose to ignore?) that your nonsense about "taking away the entire... concept of female" applies exactly equally to the concept of male (if one is to accept for a moment your nonsensical assertion)?

Allow me to illustrate:

I am a male. I am also a man. In the context of transgender identity issues, I am a cis man. In the context of attempting maximum inclusivity in the interest of public health, I am a prostate owner.

You are a female. You are also a woman. In the context of transgender identity issues, you are a cis woman. In the context of attempting maximum inclusivity in the interest of public health, you are a uterus owner.


Hope that helps.
 
You do realise (or do you, or do you choose to ignore?) that your nonsense about "taking away the entire... concept of female" applies exactly equally to the concept of male (if one is to accept for a moment your nonsensical assertion)?

Sure. But sex segregation as it exists today in developed countries primarily protects females, not males.

Allow me to illustrate:

What exactly do you think you're illustrating? The proper use of unnecessary jargon?
 
Interesting interview with Tim Minchin in today's Guardian:
I’ve been accused of drifting right. But, it’s like, hold on! I’ve spent my entire career criticising illogic. I feel like I’m still doing that, except that the religion I now see a problem with is identity fundamentalism. I feel like that is more damaging than monotheism. I don’t think my values have changed.”

Whoever does think their values have changed? From inside our own heads, it always looks as if the scenery is shifting, not us. I sketch out for Minchin my theory about political righteousness. Liberals, long used to the comfortable high of supposing they were on the right side of history, got addicted to that drug, and are now suffering the effects of its withdrawal. Younger liberals might just have cut off their supply.

Everything has been said but not everybody has said it, so I'll take a turn, as this article touches on some things that I've been kicking around.

Re: History

As US military adventurism draws on the soft glow of WWII, a lot of trans activism appeals to the success of the gay rights movement. People who repeat trans slogans often warn others about being on the "wrong side of history." Just as Saddam Hussein was "the next Hitler," nobody wants to be the next Chamberlain. After all, when gay teenagers reported having verboten sexual desires, their feelings were dismissed as, "Just a phase," "Social contagion" fueled by "the homosexual agenda," which was financed by "Hollywood weirdos" (today the en vogue slur is "groomers"). It's difficult for people to thread the needle and consistently show up on the correct side of history, especially when there's almost always strength in numbers. The most effective opponents of trans lunacy are trans people, gay people, and feminists (such as JK Rowling).

I recently heard a conservative critic describe "Wokism" as a religion that prioritizes a person's feelings over objective evidence. He went on to make the usual biological/scientific distinction between females and males, and then compare trans people to schizophrenics when it comes to "disordered" delusions. While we might patronizingly say we believe schizophrenics believe they hear voices, they're not actually hearing anything out in the world, so it's counterproductive -- and offensive -- to go along with the untruth. Except we do often go along with these untruths, at least in the form of established religion.

I have some holy roller neighbors who wanted to commemorate one year their son has been in heaven. The mother called it his "heavenly" birthday. When I described the upcoming celebration to people in my circles, they gave the desired reaction: eye-rolls. The clip-art invitation said that I was part of a "select" group to enjoy the backyard barbecue. The son died in his early thirties; he lived with his parents because he struggled with alcoholism, which eventually killed him.

At the party, which was Thursday, I saw t-shirts advertising Black Rifle Coffee, someone who was apparently saved in the year 2014, and a non-ironic bald eagle against the words "We the People." The mother talked about how her sister recently had a dream of the deceased in heaven working with Jesus to build his mama a glass house (naturally, it's a mansion). We gathered TWICE to hold hands and bow our heads. After doing holding hands once, I wasn't keen on doing it again, but I was pressured by a lanky teenager who said, "I don't bite." Of course, I succumbed. Believing in supernatural sky wizards is even more profoundly mistaken than trans-anything. Naturally, we have all kinds of accommodations for irrational religious people. It's also a lot more normal for people to be religious than thoroughly non-religious.

For religious people, it's almost always easy to condemn homosexuality. I've never wanted to have sex with a dude (except for that one time). Men are gross. Resisting pre-marital sex, however, is a major challenge. For younger people born in a particular cultural milieu, it's relatively easy to repeat what they've learned. It takes older people more time to get the latest cultural software updates. I had a militant, screechy, annoying trans student who would not accept such excuses for the olds. They said they could show me TikTok videos of grandparents who pay for their grandchild's top surgery. Do these grandparents pay for the surgery largely because they've seen the error of their ways or because they love their grandchildren? I couldn't help but think of Republicans who say their grandfather came to this country with just $5 in their pocket and a dream. In other words, the stereotypical student activist has a very right-wing, pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps take.

While science might advance one funeral at a time, acceptance of homosexuality was probably not driven so much by awakening to the irrational discrimination based on orientation (which is not unlike discriminating on the basis of sex, race, country of origin, etc.). It's nice to imagine the "expanding circle" or the "escalator of reason," and I think those ideas are operating in the background, but it's a generational process. As the trans debate wears on, fewer people agree there are more than two genders, which might suggest the escalator of reason does not take activists to the places they want to go.
 
Everything has been said but not everybody has said it, so I'll take a turn, as this article touches on some things that I've been kicking around.

I don't know when I last nominated a post, but I just did yours.

Beautifully crafted piece.
 
This message is primarily for LondonJohn.

A few pages ago, you posted a list of medical organizations that you claimed supported trans people. I read some of the links. What they agreed on was gender dysphoria.

I think everyone here can agree that people with gender dysphoria might consider being trans. But does the opposite apply?

So my question to you is:
Do you believe that anyone who claims to be transgender has gender dysphoria? Diagnosed or not. And should be treated by society accordingly?

This isn't a gotcha question. I think that most of the allegedly transgender people being complained about on this forum have not been diagnosed, nor do the bad actors show any signs of dysphoria. They are essentially faking being transgender for their own goals.

To use examples from these discussions:
  • The men in the Korean spa waving their willies at grandmothers and children really aren't displaying any signs of being upset with their sex or ashamed of their sexual organs the way a dysphoric person would.
  • The men posting videos of themselves masturbating in the women's restroom to the discomfort of any women who happen to be there. They certainly are not upset at having a penis. They actually seem to enjoy having it, in fact!
  • Men who are good in a particular sport, but not at the top, all of a sudden deciding they are really women and beating women's records. Hardly ashamed of their male bodies.
  • Men who hide cameras in women's restrooms. Are they really confused transwomen and are just doing research on how women are supposed to pee? (Ha, if you believe that one).
  • Male rapists who declare themselves to be transwomen so they can by housed with women. A rapist's fantasy come true.

To me, and I think many of the other posters here, it is obvious that they are trans in name only - no dysphoria needed. Self ID allows men to just utter the magic words and they are allowed full and uregulated access to places that women have traditionally held safe.

And bad people are taking advantage of it. Anyone who really cares about the poor dysphoric trans people, should view those bad actors with horror. Not the least for being bad representatives of the trans movement.
 
Question: What if we just got rid of the word "gender" as applied to humans?

Do we need it? I'm not as well read on these topics as a few of you appear to be, but it sure seems like it's kind of a magical word. Especially when I see it mostly used in the word "transgender", the phrase "gender roles" and as something people identify as.

Can't we just say "transsexual" and "sexual roles"? And the part where people "identify" as this or that gender seems a bit suspect. What does it signify? It gets even weirder when people start to say there are a bunch of genders. It seems leak at most it is a sort of artistic declaration or something like that.
 
Deconstructing gender would certainly change the nature of the debate. In fact, this was a project of feminism and post-feminism, before the AGPs and their fellow-travelers co-opted the LGBQ rights movement for their own perverse ends. So now we get womanface and the aggressive re-entrenching of gender stereotypes.
 
Possibly of interest, an article in The Atlantic entitled "A Teen Gender-Care Debate Is Spreading Across Europe"

https://archive.ph/sku5x

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A straightforward way to look at conclusions from these articles is that completely subjective mental health well being is being promoted at the expense of guaranteed catastrophic decline in physical health.
Montana will be seen objectively as a model for health care intervention by the state. (All medication and surgery banned before 18).
No hell fire and brimstone involved.

Most posters here were raised with a de facto ban on medication and surgery to all ages by the way.
When I think of the rare suicides they were nothing to do with gender or sex issues.
 
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