Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Emily's Cat]

Ok, taking all that as read how are we supposed to get from things which Rowling actually said (either in the podcast or elsewhere) to something like "figurative women are literal men."

Don't ask me, I don't think anything JKR has said is in any fashion transphobic, so I don't have any insight for you. Furthermore, even if she had actually said "Transwomen are MALE", I wouldn't view that as transphobic - it's flat out objective reality.

I highly doubt whether Contrapoints would be willing to call herself this.

And I think Contrapoints is dumb and wrong. I don't know where that leaves us, but the reality is that Contrapoints is a transgender identified male... and they are objectively male no matter what they've done in terms of language, presentation, hormones, or surgery.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In the video Contrapoints agrees that sports are an area where there is legitimate division between sexes, although qualifies it (reasonably in my opinion) that it depends on the sport and the age of competition. Weightlifting, she says, should be segregated by sex. You agree with that, I agree with that. She then asks what about middle school softball (I think) and suggests there is no need to segregate there. Again, I would probably agree with that too. I think there are a number of sports where segregation seems not to make a difference in terms of strength and I am surprised it happens anyway. Darts, snooker, chess (?).

My view is that the vast majority of sports should be separated by sex for children that have entered puberty.

I think that elementary school sports can be co-ed in terms of competition. Although some children will have begun puberty by the end of elementary school, the majority have not. Additionally, elementary school competitions rarely extend beyond the specific school itself, and are generally more for fun and exercise than for competition.

Generally speaking, by the time we get to middle school, the majority of kids are in the throes of puberty, where the changes to their bodies become significant - and they do so in a relatively short period of time. Additionally, for most schools, middle school is the first time that sports will have varsity, junior varsity, and general categories, and the competitions begin to include other schools within the region and the state.

I also think it's perfectly fine to have non-competitive "open" leagues at all ages which do not separate by sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think a big part of what the terven mean by "sex is real" is that they'd rather not see sex demoted beneath gender as a protected characteristic in law.

That's pretty much exactly what the intent is.

Sex is a material reality, it is objective, it is immutable. Gender (the set of roles and behaviors based on a person's perceived sex) is a social construct, which varies from time to time and culture to culture.

Gender identity is an entirely subjective, internal state which cannot be verified in any way whatsoever.

Making policy which elevates a person's gender identity above the their sex in the hierarchy of impacts has the effect of privileging the wishes and desires of one set of people over the material reality of others.

 

[Samson]

That's a very good point that nobody else has addressed yet, but I will.

I'd want to see the science behind it and whether they still have an advantage over women. If not, then I'd be all for it.

Speaking from personal experience, thanks to my daughter, who is close to three trans women, all of whom went through very early hormone treatment, they appear a lot more feminine in form than later-transitioning women, so there might be something in it.

This seems statistically a very high number unless it is non random, eg a support group or some other grouping.
I have known only one trans person that I am aware of.

 

[LondonJohn]

Because transgenderism is really transsexualism.

No, no it's not. Regardless of how many times you make the baseless claim.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's pretty much exactly what the intent is.

Sex is a material reality, it is objective, it is immutable. Gender (the set of roles and behaviors based on a person's perceived sex) is a social construct, which varies from time to time and culture to culture.

Gender identity is an entirely subjective, internal state which cannot be verified in any way whatsoever.

Making policy which elevates a person's gender identity above the their sex in the hierarchy of impacts has the effect of privileging the wishes and desires of one set of people over the material reality of others.

Shame that the entire mainstream medical community and most progressive governments fundamentally disagree with your position. I wonder which of the two opposing positions is both correct and on the right side of history.....?

 

[LondonJohn]

My view is that the vast majority of sports should be separated by sex for children that have entered puberty.

I think that elementary school sports can be co-ed in terms of competition. Although some children will have begun puberty by the end of elementary school, the majority have not. Additionally, elementary school competitions rarely extend beyond the specific school itself, and are generally more for fun and exercise than for competition.

Generally speaking, by the time we get to middle school, the majority of kids are in the throes of puberty, where the changes to their bodies become significant - and they do so in a relatively short period of time. Additionally, for most schools, middle school is the first time that sports will have varsity, junior varsity, and general categories, and the competitions begin to include other schools within the region and the state.

I also think it's perfectly fine to have non-competitive "open" leagues at all ages which do not separate by sex.

Your view is wrong, and will never, ever be implemented. The people in charge are busy sorting all of this out at the moment: outside of elite and sub-elite competition, and outside those contact sports where there is a reasonable risk of injury to cis girls/women, trans people (men and women) will be participating in the category corresponding to their trans gender. Because trans people deserve the right to participate in sport, and they obviously deserve to have their trans gender respected.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Largely a marketing term that says, "You're the one who's weird, not men who put on women's clothing and hang around in bars." Taken literally it would mean fear of transgendered people, which seems ludicrous to me, but I could understand it coming from women incarcerated with transwomen sex offenders. I'm sure a lot of people (like Kid Rock and Ted Nugent) are disgusted or feel revulsion and that's what gets classified as a phobia.

The thing is, other than not being my thing, I don't think it's weird. I think life is tough, and we need to support people however we can. Feeling uncomfortable in your own skin, and having a need to live a different identity for your own psychological well-being? I can empathize with that 100%.

But that doesn't mean that women should lose everything they have in the process, and for supporting that, I get labelled a transphobe, and I think it's ridiculous. It's a false dichotomy that I think a certain small percentage of people are pushing, and I think it's doing more harm for people than good.

 

[TomB]

I think that elementary school sports can be co-ed in terms of competition. Although some children will have begun puberty by the end of elementary school, the majority have not. Additionally, elementary school competitions rarely extend beyond the specific school itself, and are generally more for fun and exercise than for competition.

Regarding the highlighted....
Around here, there is not much in the way of sports withing the elementary schools, other than gym class.

But outside of elementary school, there are clubs and travel teams at that age. So for those engaging in sports leagues, it does transcend the school or locality at that age.

The local volleyball club starts at age 8. Until about 4th grade, it's mostly in-house scrimmages and practices. I remember a coach saying that you have to get them real young to teach them to pancake. Basically, diving flat on the gym surface with one hand out where the ball will hopefully hit. As you get older, it becomes harder to overcome your instinct against diving on a hard floor.

At fourth grade, the spots are by try-out and they travel to several non-local tournaments.

There have been boys in the program, but as I recall there were special limitations, like could only play back row and ability to play teams from another club depended on the consent of the opponent, I think. It's been 10-12 years since I was paying attention. (My daughter played on her 7th and 8th grade teams.)

Of course, there are also park district programs that are more "fun and exercise."

 

[LondonJohn]

There's a basic problem here, which is that by even using the cultural-marxist terminology that's been invented and shoe-horned into our language you validate it and allow yourselves to be corralled ("valid" is one of London Ja ... John's favourite words). I refuse to use asinine, made up words and phrases like "transphobia" and "gender non-binary" EVER (except in quotation marks) because it makes me feel like an idiot (or a 'liberal').

Wow.

Firstly, as you probably well know, I did not invent the term "valid". It's in common currency when it comes to discussing conditions such as transgender identity or homosexuality. And I've stated many, many times that in this context, "valid" simply correlates to "considered by mainstream medicine NOT to be a mental health disorder (or the product of a mental health disorder)". It's really ludicrously simple if one has an open mind and no inbuilt resistance to the evolution of language and common usage.

Your entire post comes across as the product of utterly bizarre reactionary thinking. Do you, for example, ever use the word "terrific" to describe something that's really good? Well, the word "terrific" used to mean - as its literal etymological analysis reveals - "inducing terror". So I expect you never to use the word "terrific" in anything other than its original literal meaning. This nonsense about "cultural-marxist terminology" is terrifically baffling and rather.... interesting.... to observe.

 

[LondonJohn]

Regarding softball, American civil rights activists want us to reinterpret Title IX so that it is taken to protect people based on gender rather than sex, whenever the two are in conflict:
https://apnews.com/article/sports-c...uits-indiana-b1e6afa3e567180a528532fb0e8597cf

I think a big part of what the terven mean by "sex is real" is that they'd rather not see sex demoted beneath gender as a protected characteristic in law.

What softball teams do you think a trans boy (or trans girl) should participate in? The boys' (or girls') team, or vice versa? And why?

 

[TomB]

Your view is wrong, and will never, ever be implemented. The people in charge are busy sorting all of this out at the moment: outside of elite and sub-elite competition, and outside those contact sports where there is a reasonable risk of injury to cis girls/women, trans people (men and women) will be participating in the category corresponding to their trans gender. Because trans people deserve the right to participate in sport, and they obviously deserve to have their trans gender respected.

No one is saying trans people don't have the right to participate in sport.

But I'm curious....
Why don't you think people deserve to have their sex respected?

 

[TomB]

What softball teams do you think a trans boy (or trans girl) should participate in? The boys' (or girls') team, or vice versa? And why?

I'll answer this:

Generally speaking, I think it should be determined by their sex.
The reasoning is that the advantages inherent to males...the reason why we have segregated sports...are the product of sex, not gender. Gender segregation serves no purpose. Sex segregation does.

That said. I'm also against hard and fast rules. I think there are cases when exceptions should be made based on individual circumstances like to what extent they went through puberty.

But that requires judgement. It's very hard to write laws that allow for judgment. They tend towards rigid black and white. Digital, when life is analog. So I don't think laws are always the best solution.

ETA: Around here, there is no boys softball team. There is a boy's baseball team. And yes, it's a different sport with similar, but different skills.

ETA Again: There are two major types of softball: fastpitch and slowpitch. The travel leagues and high school leagues are fast pitch.
Slow pitch is what adults play in beer leagues and park districts. Also a different game. These leagues are often coed. But the rules usually require a minimum number of females on the team. And the sexes must alternate in the batting order. A male can't bat immediately after another male.

 

[LondonJohn]

If homosexuality being classified was mentioned, I doubt it was for any reason other than drawing spurious parallels, even if by indirect implication. Providing specific detail isn't needed, because people obviously find it pleasing to view themselves as 'just like the first people to realise that homosexuality is not a disorder' and therefore morally superior. People will readily accept something without evidence that flatters their self-conception. Too much detail might spoil the fun by providing facts that can actually be checked.

So what you're saying here is essentially that you don't regard it as either significant or important that the actual world experts in this field of medical science have reclassified transgender identity, just as they reclassified homosexuality?

And you're either stating or implying that you know better than them, when you deny the validity* of transgender identity?

I see......


* For the avoidance of doubt, "validity" means "something that is a genuine, innate human condition, and which is not a mental health disorder** or the product of a mental health disorder".

** And to draw a parallel, someone identifying as an attack helicopter is considered by mainstream medicine to be suffering from a mental health disorder. Therein lies the difference.

 

[lionking]

No one is saying trans people don't have the right to participate in sport.

But I'm curious....
Why don't you think people deserve to have their sex respected?

I’m going to have a crack at this. Because it would upset transwomen who, unable to win in the category corresponding to their sex, want to stand on that podium.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'll answer this:

Generally speaking, I think it should be determined by their sex.
The reasoning is that the advantages inherent to males...the reason why we have segregated sports...are the product of sex, not gender. Gender segregation serves no purpose. Sex segregation does.

That said. I'm also against hard and fast rules. I think there are cases when exceptions should be made based on individual circumstances like to what extent they went through puberty.

But that requires judgement. It's very hard to write laws that allow for judgment. They tend towards rigid black and white. Digital, when life is analog. So I don't think laws are always the best solution.

Well, your proposed approach is entirely unworkable.

Either trans boys (for example*) should be allowed to participate in boys' sport, or they should be made to participate in girls' sport, or they should be segregated into their own "special" category of sport, or they should not be allowed to participate in sport at all. Those are the only four options.

The third and fourth of these are very obviously non-starters (well, it should be obvious to all right-thinking people....). And of the first & second options, I believe it's perfectly clear that the only reasonable solution is to allow trans boys to participate in boys' sport. The only exceptions to that rule would be if there were safety concerns wrt contact sports, or if, in certain sports (e.g. gymnastics) where competitive levels such as national schools championships could reasonably be considered sub-elite-level competition.

That's been my consistent position for as long as I can remember commenting on transgender issues. And I'm being nicely vindicated by real-world decisions.


* And it's both useful and instructive (IMO) to remember that this issue affect trans boys just as much as trans girls - even though certain anti-trans activists like to think that whole side of things is either unimportant or irrelevant, or both.

 

[LondonJohn]

I’m going to have a crack at this. Because it would upset transwomen who, unable to win in the category corresponding to their sex, want to stand on that podium.

Should trans men be able to compete in men's sport*, or should they be made to participate only in women's sport? Or should they be made to participate in their own special "trans" category, away from both men's and women's categories? Or should they not be allowed to participate in any sporting activities?


* Excluding sub-elite and elite level competition, or certain contact sports.

 

[angrysoba]

There's a basic problem here, which is that by even using the cultural-marxist terminology that's been invented and shoe-horned into our language you validate it and allow yourselves to be corralled ("valid" is one of London Ja ... John's favourite words). I refuse to use asinine, made up words and phrases like "transphobia" and "gender non-binary" EVER (except in quotation marks) because it makes me feel like an idiot (or a 'liberal').

Made-up words!

Also, "Cultural-Marxist".

I don't know how IsThisTheLife imagines there are words that were not made up. Maybe they were made up in Heaven by God or something. Still, if any term is a propaganda term parotted by mindless NPCs it is Cultural Marxism.

 

[LondonJohn]

Made-up words!

Also, "Cultural-Marxist".

I don't know how IsThisTheLife imagines there are words that were not made up. Maybe they were made up in Heaven by God or something. Still, if any term is a propaganda term parotted by mindless NPCs it is Cultural Marxism.

I know. It was a quite extraordinary post, wasn't it?

 

[TomB]

Well, your proposed approach is entirely unworkable.

Either trans boys (for example*) should be allowed to participate in boys' sport, or they should be made to participate in girls' sport, or they should be segregated into their own "special" category of sport, or they should not be allowed to participate in sport at all. Those are the only four options.

The third and fourth of these are very obviously non-starters (well, it should be obvious to all right-thinking people....). And of the first & second options, I believe it's perfectly clear that the only reasonable solution is to allow trans boys to participate in boys' sport. The only exceptions to that rule would be if there were safety concerns wrt contact sports, or if, in certain sports (e.g. gymnastics) where competitive levels such as national schools championships could reasonably be considered sub-elite-level competition.

That's been my consistent position for as long as I can remember commenting on transgender issues. And I'm being nicely vindicated by real-world decisions.


* And it's both useful and instructive (IMO) to remember that this issue affect trans boys just as much as trans girls - even though certain anti-trans activists like to think that whole side of things is either unimportant or irrelevant, or both.

Except you are wrong. This has essentially been happening for a very long time.

Particularly for females playing on the male team. There have been girls on the boys wrestling teams, and girls on the boys baseball teams back a long way. Hell, in the movie the Bad News Bears (1976) the pitcher is a girl.

There have also been accommodations made for boys to play on girls' teams at times. Usually when there is no boys team.

Girls "playing up" is rare largely because they generally aren't likely to make the team. However, as they're sex doesn't give them advantage they are often (usually?) allowed to try out. A trans boy trying out for the boy's team is no different. We've already digested this situation decades ago when we decided girls could play football or baseball or wrestle on the boys' teams.

An issue trans boys do face is that if they are on testosterone, they may need to get a special dispensation to participate on the girls' team due to using a PED.

Boys "playing down" only happens rarely because the reason for the segregation is sex based advantages. But as I illustrated with a real life volleyball example, sometimes accommodations are made in special circumstances.

And you really aren't being vindicated by real world decisions to the extent that you seem to think.