Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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smartcooky said:
Or Kate Weatherly, the NZ trans mountain biker who was always in the bottom half of the field when competing with other men. Now, he wipes the floor with all his actual female competitors through having grown up a male, therefore going through male puberty, and is anatomically still male, and therefore is visibly physically bigger and stronger than those he is competing against.

I'd love to know how it can be considered fair for all those ambitious girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in their chosen sport, only for some man to come along and take their dreams away? Perhaps London John can explain the equity in this.
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How can it be considered fair for (e.g.) all the ambitious white American girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in long-distance running, only for some black East-African woman (with a number of innate physical advantages) to come along and take their dreams away?
I don't think you've thought this through very well, have you?


PS: for the record - and you almost certainly know this - I do not support the right of trans women to compete in the women's category of sports at elite and sub-elite levels (or at any level in contact sports or sports where there might be a reasonable risk of physical injury to cis woman participants). And I've given my reasons for this several times already. Funnily enough, it appears that pretty much every sport agrees with my point of view - and not with the anti-trans PoV which submits that all women's sports at all levels should be closed to trans women.
 
LondonJohn said:
How can it be considered fair for (e.g.) all the ambitious white American girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in long-distance running, only for some black East-African woman (with a number of innate physical advantages) to come along and take their dreams away?
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You know repeating this bogus analogy doesn’t make it less bogus?
 
LondonJohn said:
Mainstream medicine now recognises transgender identity as a valid lived identity (that is to say, mainstream medicine does not consider transgender identity to be a mental health disorder). That determination has been reached with reference to evidence & analysis, combined with the vast collective experience, skillset, knowledge and education of all those clinicians who specialise in this area.
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What a load of utter, meaningless drivel

Mainsteam psychology once believed that repressed memories were valid, but that changed when they realized that it was near-impossible for the therapist to elicit genuine memories without tainting and influencing the recall process. This treatment is now considers myth-based gobbledygook and is practiced only by quacks. Unfortunately a lot of people had their lives turned upside down, and a lot of victims were driven to end their own lives because of the persecution they suffered from family who re recalling things that nvr happened.

Mainstream Medicine at one time used electric shock treatment to treat depression and bipolar disorder (among other things) but that is no longer the case. The FDA officially banned this treatment a few years ago, but not before, again, many were seriously and permanently injured and had their lives turned upside down. Again, victims were driven to end their own lives, because of the long term effects and the pain they endured.

Mainstream Medicine at one time used heroin as a cure for coughing, cocaine for toothache, and lobotomised people to treat them for mental illness. The long term deleterious effects of these treatments should not need explaining to anyone over 10th grade.

Mainstream medicine does not have all the answers, and has in the past often been show to be wrong.
 
LondonJohn said:
How can it be considered fair for (e.g.) all the ambitious white American girls who trained and worked hard for years to achieve in long-distance running, only for some black East-African woman (with a number of innate physical advantages) to come along and take their dreams away?
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The is an old, fallacious analogy that simply does not stand up to the tiniest amount of scrutiny. No white girl is going to be able to identify as black.

Males like "Kate" Weatherly and "Lia" Thomas are not the slightest bit interested in really identifying as "woman", they only doing what they do to cheat - to win against girls because they are know they are not good enough to win against members of their own sex.

LondonJohn said:
PS: for the record - and you almost certainly know this - I do not support the right of trans women to compete in the women's category of sports at elite and sub-elite levels (or at any level in contact sports or sports where there might be a reasonable risk of physical injury to cis woman participants). And I've given my reasons for this several times already. Funnily enough, it appears that pretty much every sport agrees with my point of view - and not with the anti-trans PoV which submits that all women's sports at all levels should be closed to trans women.
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Not far enough.

IMO, no-one who has, or has ever had, a penis, or who has gone through male puberty, should ever be permitted to compete against women in a women's competition or sport at ANY level.

Has it ever occurred to you that few, if any woman sports people or athletes want to identify as men and play against men?

Now, I wonder what that is?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Mulvaney's entire schtick is a crass infantilization of females into insulting caricatures as dumb, witless, childish, people-pleasing ditzes.
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Good thing natal females aren't cleaning up with this same schtick on, say, TikTok & YouTube. Ever been to AzzyLand?

lionking said:
You know repeating this bogus analogy doesn’t make it less bogus?
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I don't think it is obvious to LJ why the analogy is bogus. He seems to think that losing to Kenyan women at the Olympics is somehow comparable to losing a track scholarship to the (former) boy from down the block.
 
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smartcooky said:
The is an old, fallacious analogy that simply does not stand up to the tiniest amount of scrutiny.
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The kicker is that if we are to actually take that argument seriously, it's an argument for doing away with sex segregation entirely, and not an argument for letting trans people be exceptions. But trans activists don't want to do away with sex segregation. The entire point is to let transwomen compete against females and NOT males.
 
Social ostracism enforcement mechanisms are straining against their first real challenge, having perhaps tackled a bridge too far.

This mechanism cannot be allowed to fail. That's what's going on here. A useful means of banding yokels together, so election can occur, so corruption can occur, as with any other.


The rest of you are just cogs, rotating according to design, a cog who struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale.. .told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
 
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theprestige said:
Subway - Jared Fogle

Nike - Kyrie Irving

Jell-O - Bill Cosby

Hertz - OJ Simpson

Livestrong - Lance Armstrong

You probably don't care much about any of those companies, but I bet you formed some negative opinions of them and their choice of spokesperson. With two exceptions - if the company promptly severed ties with the offensive spokesperson; or if you don't think the spokesperson did anything offensive.

I think the distinguishing factor here is probably not that you don't care about Anheuser-Busch. It's probably that you don't think Dylan Mulvaney performing womanface is actually offensive.

And really, that's the topic of this thread. Nobody here cares what you think about a beer company. You focusing on that is just you deflecting attention away from relevant questions of this thread. Questions like, to what extent are transwomen women, and to what extent are they men performing womanface? And is womanface even a problem to you?
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Those companies? Nope. I formed no opinions on those companies for their choice of spokesperson. Pretty sure I had no idea about these choices until I read your post.

As for whether transwomen can be considered women, I honestly don’t really know. I have wondered (in the past) whether there is, for example, a male brain and a female brain. Interestingly I have seen some people argue vehemently that men and women absolutely do have different minds. And I have seen a lot of ink spilled arguing the complete opposite and that such differences are not real biological facts, but social conditioning.

So here is my question, and it may have been asked a million times already, do men and women have biologically different brains. If so, is it possible for a man to have a woman’s brain and Vice verse?

FYI I am completely transphobic in one regard. Transwomen should not compete in men’s sports.

I recently got a new 1RM PR on the bench press and was pretty impressed with myself. I checked out some strength standards websites and found that my lift would put me in the upper intermediate range for men of my age and weight but it would have been elite if I entered a competition as a woman. I could be winning gold medals in powerlifting tournaments and I only started lifting weights about eight years ago in my late thirties.

So I am prepared to compromise. Yes, transwomen can be considered women in many areas but competing in sporrs is like being on steroids. No way!
 
I also don’t care about someone doing “womanface” either. Have you not seen Monty Python or Little Britain?

I don’t really care about blackface either. I recently watched some episodes of It’s Always Sunny and the blackface episodes are hilarious.

Seriously, how did we get here with everyone deciding to burn their own villages?

I will give points to Joe Rogan. Much as he spouts idiot anti-vaxx garbage, he is at least true to his principles of standing by entertainers and letting them do their act. One thing that used to come up was “oh if you find that offensive then don’t go to any comedy club, snowflake!” And now here we are with people piously intoning the idea that some transgender person is tearing at the fabric of society with “womanface” and someone think of the Bud Light swigging children!

Dudes, will you stop clutching those pearls, make like a trans man and grow some balls!
 
angrysoba said:
Those companies? Nope. I formed no opinions on those companies for their choice of spokesperson. Pretty sure I had no idea about these choices until I read your post.

As for whether transwomen can be considered women, I honestly don’t really know. I have wondered (in the past) whether there is, for example, a male brain and a female brain. Interestingly I have seen some people argue vehemently that men and women absolutely do have different minds. And I have seen a lot of ink spilled arguing the complete opposite and that such differences are not real biological facts, but social conditioning.

So here is my question, and it may have been asked a million times already, do men and women have biologically different brains. If so, is it possible for a man to have a woman’s brain and Vice verse?

FYI I am completely transphobic in one regard. Transwomen should not compete in men’s sports.

I recently got a new 1RM PR on the bench press and was pretty impressed with myself. I checked out some strength standards websites and found that my lift would put me in the upper intermediate range for men of my age and weight but it would have been elite if I entered a competition as a woman. I could be winning gold medals in powerlifting tournaments and I only started lifting weights about eight years ago in my late thirties.

So I am prepared to compromise. Yes, transwomen can be considered women in many areas but competing in sporrs is like being on steroids. No way!
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What if the transwoman used puberty blockers and hormone therapy as a teen, and did not develop the skeletal structure and muscle mass of a male?
 
angrysoba said:
I also don’t care about someone doing “womanface” either. Have you not seen Monty Python or Little Britain?
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That's done as comedy, and everyone knows it's comedy. The portrayals aren't meant to be believed. We're supposed to take Dylan seriously, and consider him to be an actual woman, and the act he puts on as somehow and admirable example of being his true self, not a parody.

That's not a small difference.

And Dylan isn't alone in this womanface act. It's disturbingly common. He's just a far better grifter than most.
 
smartcooky said:
What a load of utter, meaningless drivel

Mainsteam psychology once believed that repressed memories were valid, but that changed when they realized that it was near-impossible for the therapist to elicit genuine memories without tainting and influencing the recall process. This treatment is now considers myth-based gobbledygook and is practiced only by quacks. Unfortunately a lot of people had their lives turned upside down, and a lot of victims were driven to end their own lives because of the persecution they suffered from family who re recalling things that nvr happened.

Mainstream Medicine at one time used electric shock treatment to treat depression and bipolar disorder (among other things) but that is no longer the case. The FDA officially banned this treatment a few years ago, but not before, again, many were seriously and permanently injured and had their lives turned upside down. Again, victims were driven to end their own lives, because of the long term effects and the pain they endured.

Mainstream Medicine at one time used heroin as a cure for coughing, cocaine for toothache, and lobotomised people to treat them for mental illness. The long term deleterious effects of these treatments should not need explaining to anyone over 10th grade.

Mainstream medicine does not have all the answers, and has in the past often been show to be wrong.
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You're apparently unfamiliar with basic scientific doctrine, part of which is that the best science is always the current science. You also don't seem to realise that you've rather shot yourself in the foot by showing - via your examples - that as scientific thinking evolves and improves, previous scientific truths are superseded by current truths.

I could, for example, repeat your "gotcha" straight back to you in this form: "Mainstream medicine at one time considered transgender identity to be a mental health disorder, back when it was the business of quacks. Fortunately in this enlightened age, we've progressed beyond such quackery and we now realise that trans identity actually isn't a mental health disorder".

Your obvious opposition to, and inbuilt distrust of, the current medical consensus is both striking and illogical. Are you dismissive of the present-day practice of putting stents into coronary arteries, purely on the basis that (in your view) mainstream medicine can't be trusted to know what it's doing? Are you resistant to the treatment of HIV with advanced anti-retroviral medication, simply because mainstream medicine has demonstrably got things wrong in the past? I suggest that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
smartcooky said:
The is an old, fallacious analogy that simply does not stand up to the tiniest amount of scrutiny. No white girl is going to be able to identify as black.

Males like "Kate" Weatherly and "Lia" Thomas are not the slightest bit interested in really identifying as "woman", they only doing what they do to cheat - to win against girls because they are know they are not good enough to win against members of their own sex.



Not far enough.

IMO, no-one who has, or has ever had, a penis, or who has gone through male puberty, should ever be permitted to compete against women in a women's competition or sport at ANY level.

Has it ever occurred to you that few, if any woman sports people or athletes want to identify as men and play against men?

Now, I wonder what that is?
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Evidence for your sweeping claim? (Thought not.)

As for the rest of your anti-transgender-identity rant, it doesn't deserve any form of response.
 
d4m10n said:
Good thing natal females aren't cleaning up with this same schtick on, say, TikTok & YouTube. Ever been to AzzyLand?

I don't think it is obvious to LJ why the analogy is bogus. He seems to think that losing to Kenyan women at the Olympics is somehow comparable to losing a track scholarship to the (former) boy from down the block.
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Got (reliable) evidence that natal females have lost track scholarships to trans women?
 
Ziggurat said:
We're supposed to take Dylan seriously, and consider him to be an actual woman, and the act he puts on as somehow and admirable example of being his true self, not a parody.
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Even supposing Dylan is 100% projecting the truest possible version of their innermost self rather than putting on an show for the audience (which is what I really do suppose of popular digital media influencers) it wouldn't make any sense to take those projections as gospel on what it means to perform femininity or experience girlhood. If you hung around the theater kids in high school or college, you must know that they are exceptional rather than representative.
 
LondonJohn said:
Evidence for your sweeping claim? (Thought not.)

As for the rest of your anti-transgender-identity rant, it doesn't deserve any form of response.
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Do me a favour and quote something anyone has posted in this thread which can be reasonably considered to be bigoted against people who decide to identify as a different gender.

I’m not talking about people concerned about transwomen impacting on women’s rights, like access to change rooms, safe places and sporting competitions, but someone saying “transgender people shouldn’t exist” or similar.

Your depiction of people who question the hyperbolic demands of TRAs as bigoted is tiresome in the extreme, incorrect and insulting.

But this looks like the only tool you have. So hammer away. It’s entirely pointless, but it must be important to you to continue lying.
 
LondonJohn said:
Got (reliable) evidence that natal females have lost track scholarships to trans women?
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We'll never know which scholarship opportunities Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell, Alanna Smith and Ashley Nicoletti would have had in a world in which they were expected only to compete against other natal females while in high school, because we do not have epistemic access to that possible world and the internal deliberations of scholarship committees are not generally made public. We do know that they would have made the podium in many more events and championships, had they not been expected to compete against males.
 
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