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Cont: Scorpion's Spiritualism, Part Deux

The reality of ESP

I have now read two books by Russell Targ. One is called 'Mind Reach' by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff and the other is called. ' The reality of ESP' by Russell Targ.

Russell Targ is a physicist who worked on the development of lasers before turning to the study of remote viewing and telepathy.

His book, 'Mind reach' contains details of scientifically controlled tests of remote viewing and telepathy.
In ' Mind reach' he discusses Uri Geller. When you read this name you will doubtlessly think it is garbage. I myself though this when I saw Uri Geller's name in it. But the account of Uri Gellers test scores convinced me he is genuine. He scored results of a million to one against the results of his telepathy tests being by chance alone.
Critics of this book have said there was a friend of Uri Gellers at the tests facility and he probably told Uri the answers. But Targ says when the tests were being conducted Uris friend was not present.

What is worrying is that Uri Geller has recently warned Britain not to supply depleted uranium shells to the Ukraine, as he thinks Putin might launch a nuclear attack on Britain in retaliation.

I myself am certain of the existence of telepathy as I have been on the receiving end of it as I have stated in my thread 'Scorpions spiritualism'
I am also quite certain there is such a thing as ESP (extra sensory perception) and that there is a spirit world that we go to after death.
I have had many evidential messages from the spirit world through mediums.
One message was about a brother I had that died as a baby in the war, and my mother had never told me this. I was told by a medium in a spiritualist church that my mother had never been to.
I have also heard voices in my head that make sense. Including one incident where a voice told me they would help me to get money for a computer and one hour before a lottery draw in 1998 a voice said 'You won'. I did win enough to buy a computer.

I recommend people here read the books of Russell Targ, as they might change your views. Atheism is a state of mind you might change if you read the scientific evidence of telepathy and ESP they contain.

I said I would read books critical of Targ's books. But I was presented with a long list and I declined to read them, on account of the fact I am convinced Targ is telling the truth. His testing was foolproof under controlled conditions, and in any case as I have stated I am certain telepathy and ESP exist because of my own experience.
 
Geller is a magician who lied about ESP. .

Your refusal to read anything that challenges your beliefs while asking others to do exactly that is damning.

This thread is pointless if you are not willing to honestly engage in discussion. Actually this thread is pointless anyway. There is no ESP and any person genuinely interested in the topic would come to that conclusion from the overwhelming lack of evidence in proper tests.
 
Scorpion said:
His book, 'Mind reach' contains details of scientifically controlled tests of remote viewing and telepathy.
Click to expand...

No, it really doesn't. Anyone with the slightest understanding of the scientific method can see the gigantic flaws in the test protocol used by Project Star Gate.

But the account of Uri Gellers test scores convinced me he is genuine. He scored results of a million to one against the results of his telepathy tests being by chance alone.
Click to expand...

No, he really didn't. Again, anyone with the slightest understanding of the scientific method can see why.

I'd be happy have an honest discussion with you on this subject, if that is really what you want.

This article gives a reasonable summary of the problems with Targ's work, and would serve as a good starting place for such a discussion:

https://skepdic.com/remotevw.html

Can I draw your attention to this paragraph in particular:

The process of evaluation by parapsychologists of a "hit" for remote viewing is similar to that used in the Maimonides dream telepathy experiments. If an occasional description seems apt to the target, that's a hit. If it isn't, exploit the ambiguity of the description or revert to allowing symbolic connections and that's a hit too. In other words, a hit's a hit and so is a miss. In fact, there is no precise, clear-cut definition of what will count as a hit before the test begins. Because of the leeway in interpretation that is allowed judges of hits and misses, there is no way to falsify the remote viewing hypothesis using such tests. Without a reliable method that could falsify a claim, one can let the imagination run wild and allow confirmation bias to count as scientific testing.
Click to expand...
 
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Lothian said:
Your refusal to read anything that challenges your beliefs while asking others to do exactly that is damning.
Click to expand...

So many people seem to think that having an open mind only means being open to evidence and argument for a claim. That it also means being open to evidence and argument against it never seems to occur to them.

Scorpion is stating that his mind is firmly closed on this issue despite only ever have looked for, let alone at, the evidence and arguments for what he chooses to believe. The evidence and arguments against his beliefs are far stronger, as anyone who has looked at both with an open mind (as all good sceptics have) will confirm.
 
Pixel42 said:
So many people seem to think that having an open mind only means being open to evidence and argument for a claim. That it also means being open to evidence and argument against it never seems to occur to them.
Scorpion is stating that his mind is firmly closed on this issue despite only ever have looked for, let alone at, the evidence and arguments for what he chooses to believe. The evidence and arguments against his beliefs are far stronger, as anyone who has looked at both with an open mind (as all good sceptics have) will confirm.
Click to expand...

Indeed!

"...keep your minds open — but not so open that your brains fall out."
- Prof. Walter Kotschnig to students at Mount Holyoke College MA
 
Scorpion said:
I have now read two books by Russell Targ. One is called 'Mind Reach' by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff and the other is called. ' The reality of ESP' by Russell Targ.

Russell Targ is a physicist who worked on the development of lasers before turning to the study of remote viewing and telepathy.

His book, 'Mind reach' contains details of scientifically controlled tests of remote viewing and telepathy.
In ' Mind reach' he discusses Uri Geller. When you read this name you will doubtlessly think it is garbage. I myself though this when I saw Uri Geller's name in it. But the account of Uri Gellers test scores convinced me he is genuine. He scored results of a million to one against the results of his telepathy tests being by chance alone.
Critics of this book have said there was a friend of Uri Gellers at the tests facility and he probably told Uri the answers. But Targ says when the tests were being conducted Uris friend was not present.

What is worrying is that Uri Geller has recently warned Britain not to supply depleted uranium shells to the Ukraine, as he thinks Putin might launch a nuclear attack on Britain in retaliation.

I myself am certain of the existence of telepathy as I have been on the receiving end of it as I have stated in my thread 'Scorpions spiritualism'
I am also quite certain there is such a thing as ESP (extra sensory perception) and that there is a spirit world that we go to after death.
I have had many evidential messages from the spirit world through mediums.
One message was about a brother I had that died as a baby in the war, and my mother had never told me this. I was told by a medium in a spiritualist church that my mother had never been to.
I have also heard voices in my head that make sense. Including one incident where a voice told me they would help me to get money for a computer and one hour before a lottery draw in 1998 a voice said 'You won'. I did win enough to buy a computer.

I recommend people here read the books of Russell Targ, as they might change your views. Atheism is a state of mind you might change if you read the scientific evidence of telepathy and ESP they contain.

I said I would read books critical of Targ's books. But I was presented with a long list and I declined to read them, on account of the fact I am convinced Targ is telling the truth. His testing was foolproof under controlled conditions, and in any case as I have stated I am certain telepathy and ESP exist because of my own experience.
Click to expand...

Highlighting mine...

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god(s) not a lack of belief in super powers, though the two often go hand in hand since each tend to result from critical thinking, evidence and logical reasoning.

I assume in your anecdote (of almost zero worth) that your mum confirmed this dead brother? Strange family that you would grow up not knowing that.... Note also that just because she didn't tell you, does not mean others would not know - it would be a difficult thing to keep secret. May even be in newspaper accounts of the time. Your lack of knowledge (albeit surprising) does not mean that others in that church did not know, especially if there were people there who were around at the time of the event. It does not require your mother to be a member of the church for a member of the church to know something about your mother. Also, do you know how many people were killed in the war - it's a pretty safe thing to throw out a prediction about and we know from recorded sessions how much the subject will then later ascribe definite knowledge and accuracy to what a review of the recording shows was nothing of the sort eg 'I see a relative lost in tragic circumstances' becomes 'Mum, have we lost a family member in tragic circumstances?'. 'Yes you had a brother who died in the war.' 'Amazing, the medium knew I had a brother who died in the war'. The subject will then usually be completely convinced that's exactly what the medium said and look very puzzled when the actual recording does not show that.

Do you know how many people get a feeling they've won the lottery...and then forget it when they haven't, rinse and repeat until you get a hit and then 'It's amazing, I had a feeling I'd won'?

And Uri Geller, seriously. One of the most debunked psychics of all time? Could not perform at all when a trained magician set the parameters of the test (see the Johnny Carson show I think, where Randi helped them prep) - see also Project Alpha where two (relatively young and unskilled) magicians had the supposedly scientific study completely fooled.
 
Mind you, your 'open mindedness' does help explain how you've fallen for the total guff that Muslims are about to become a majority in the UK...
 
Pixel42 said:
So many people seem to think that having an open mind only means being open to evidence and argument for a claim. That it also means being open to evidence and argument against it never seems to occur to them...
Click to expand...


Haha, well put! I'm so stealing that! :thumbsup:
 
Pixel42 said:
So many people seem to think that having an open mind only means being open to evidence and argument for a claim. That it also means being open to evidence and argument against it never seems to occur to them.
Click to expand...

Open-mindedness is merely the lack of prejudice: a willingness to judge each case on the merits of its argument and the strength of its evidence. Claimants bring cases to skeptics understandably expecting them to react initially (and maybe entirely) with disbelief. Yes, a skeptic is likely to begin with disbelief. But whoever actually looks at the proffered case and evaluates the evidence is acting with an open mind. That person is saying, "Based on past experience, this claim is likely to be false. But I'm looking to see whether this case might be an exception to that trend."

An open-minded person can ultimately reject the conclusion without loss of objectivity if the case simply doesn't provide good evidence, such as in this case where confirmation bias is clearly evident in the evaluation of the findings. Claimants want to redefine open-mindedness to mean accepting claims despite having only poor evidence. It's begging to lower the standard of review so that the desired conclusion gets a pass.
 
Scorpion said:
His book, 'Mind reach' contains details of scientifically controlled tests of remote viewing and telepathy.
Click to expand...

No, it wasn't until the full details of the study were examined that the obvious flaws in its protocol were apparent. It's bad science and dishonest reporting.

I myself am certain of the existence of telepathy...
Click to expand...

Yes, this forum has entertained lengthy and repeated debates on your claims. There is no need to restage them, as I'm certain the outcome will not change.

I recommend people here read the books of Russell Targ, as they might change your views.
Click to expand...

They certainly changed my views on Targ. It's amazing to me that someone can do rigorous and important work in one area of study, and go so completely off the rails in areas where it seems they really want to see things that aren't there and don't happen. Having known, hired, and worked with several PhD physicists over the years, I can say that the implied notion that anyone working as a physicist is invariably logical and reasonable in all other aspects of their lives is markedly false.

Atheism is a state of mind you might change if you read the scientific evidence of telepathy and ESP they contain.
Click to expand...

As others have noted, you're conflating dissimilar topics. One could conceivably embrace a scientifically probative model of telepathy without visiting religion or theism at all. In your case, you've embraced these forms of spiritualism because they were presented to you in the context of a religion that believed in them as tenets. This is not something skeptics combine.

I said I would read books critical of Targ's books. But I was presented with a long list and I declined to read them, on account of the fact I am convinced Targ is telling the truth.
Click to expand...

Advertising that your mind is closed makes it improper for you to invite comment and criticism from those of us who have examined both sides and drawn an informed conclusion.
 
Scorpion said:
I have now read two books by Russell Targ. One is called 'Mind Reach' by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff and the other is called. ' The reality of ESP' by Russell Targ.

Russell Targ is a physicist who worked on the development of lasers before turning to the study of remote viewing and telepathy.

His book, 'Mind reach' contains details of scientifically controlled tests of remote viewing and telepathy.
In ' Mind reach' he discusses Uri Geller. When you read this name you will doubtlessly think it is garbage. I myself though this when I saw Uri Geller's name in it. But the account of Uri Gellers test scores convinced me he is genuine. He scored results of a million to one against the results of his telepathy tests being by chance alone.
Critics of this book have said there was a friend of Uri Gellers at the tests facility and he probably told Uri the answers. But Targ says when the tests were being conducted Uris friend was not present.

What is worrying is that Uri Geller has recently warned Britain not to supply depleted uranium shells to the Ukraine, as he thinks Putin might launch a nuclear attack on Britain in retaliation.

I myself am certain of the existence of telepathy as I have been on the receiving end of it as I have stated in my thread 'Scorpions spiritualism'
I am also quite certain there is such a thing as ESP (extra sensory perception) and that there is a spirit world that we go to after death.
I have had many evidential messages from the spirit world through mediums.
One message was about a brother I had that died as a baby in the war, and my mother had never told me this. I was told by a medium in a spiritualist church that my mother had never been to.
I have also heard voices in my head that make sense. Including one incident where a voice told me they would help me to get money for a computer and one hour before a lottery draw in 1998 a voice said 'You won'. I did win enough to buy a computer.

I recommend people here read the books of Russell Targ, as they might change your views. Atheism is a state of mind you might change if you read the scientific evidence of telepathy and ESP they contain.

I said I would read books critical of Targ's books. But I was presented with a long list and I declined to read them, on account of the fact I am convinced Targ is telling the truth. His testing was foolproof under controlled conditions, and in any case as I have stated I am certain telepathy and ESP exist because of my own experience.
Click to expand...

If it can't be monetized or weaponized, it doesn't matter how "real" it is. Without a predictable, repeatable process; without a consistently measurable effect, it might as well not be real.

You want to get my attention? Stop telling me ESP is real. Start telling me about all the satisfied customers who are paying you good money to transmit useful information at a distance using ESP.

If ESP were real, football coaches would be going through workshops with their players to make it more effective on the field.

If ESP were real, the military would be raising ESP battalions, and embedding ESP pathfinders with every recon platoon.

If ESP were real, it would be part of the social engineering toolkit discussed by hackers of all hat colors. If ESP were real, mental countermeasures would be part of every corporation's annual security and confidentiality education for employees.

If ESP were real, the FBI would have a special program at Quantico, for sensitive agents and interested police departments across the country. They'd be touting it as a tool for interrogating suspects, finding missing persons, and hunting down serial killers.

If ESP were real, the Russians would be using it to cheat in chess tournaments, and complaining that everyone else is using it to cheat against them.

And don't tell me that ESP is real, but the military is just keeping it secret. Military secrets get leaked all the time. Some jackass man-child just published a trove of secret information he shouldn't even have had access to - let alone been entrusted with! - in a videogame chat room. If ESP were real, details of its military applications would have been included in that leak.

So don't tell me about how real you think ESP is. Tell me about all the money you're making from practical applications of ESP technology.

Relevant xkcd
 
How much money are Apple, Alphabet Inc. or Amazon making from ESP?

Has Musk founded a company to exploit telepathy?
 
theprestige said:
If it can't be monetized or weaponized, it doesn't matter how "real" it is. Without a predictable, repeatable process; without a consistently measurable effect, it might as well not be real.

You want to get my attention? Stop telling me ESP is real. Start telling me about all the satisfied customers who are paying you good money to transmit useful information at a distance using ESP.

If ESP were real, football coaches would be going through workshops with their players to make it more effective on the field.

If ESP were real, the military would be raising ESP battalions, and embedding ESP pathfinders with every recon platoon.

If ESP were real, it would be part of the social engineering toolkit discussed by hackers of all hat colors. If ESP were real, mental countermeasures would be part of every corporation's annual security and confidentiality education for employees.

If ESP were real, the FBI would have a special program at Quantico, for sensitive agents and interested police departments across the country. They'd be touting it as a tool for interrogating suspects, finding missing persons, and hunting down serial killers.

If ESP were real, the Russians would be using it to cheat in chess tournaments, and complaining that everyone else is using it to cheat against them.

And don't tell me that ESP is real, but the military is just keeping it secret. Military secrets get leaked all the time. Some jackass man-child just published a trove of secret information he shouldn't even have had access to - let alone been entrusted with! - in a videogame chat room. If ESP were real, details of its military applications would have been included in that leak.

So don't tell me about how real you think ESP is. Tell me about all the money you're making from practical applications of ESP technology.

Relevant xkcd
Click to expand...

Heck, if you're claiming you've got ESP, forget about margins of error and all that stuff. Just, ya know, scry on me for a little bit and post something distinctive - like, for example, what did I just hurt myself trying to fix? Bam, you've scored major points. Strange that nobody can ever do stuff like that.
 
theprestige said:
Counterpoint: Even Elon Musk hasn't invested in telepathy.

Counter-counterpoint: Moscow apparently believes in witchcraft.

Counter-counterpoint-point: If Moscow believes in it, it's probably stupid and wrong.
Click to expand...

US Intelligence got at least 100x more money to look into ESP etc. than Moscow ever spend.
 
theprestige said:
If it can't be monetized or weaponized, it doesn't matter how "real" it is. [...]

If ESP were real...
Click to expand...

And science works this way too. I regularly work with a bunch of neuroscientists, many of whom belong to my state's majority religion. They believe religiously in souls. They believe religiously in some form of extrasensory communication. But scientifically speaking, they don't believe in the claims of ESP or telepathy, nor has their scientific field yet found any way it could work.

That said, they'd be falling all over themselves to research this if there were anything to it. They'd have grants from dozens of government agencies and private corporations to characterize and productize the phenomenon. And they'd be writing big checks to me out of those grants to do their engineering analysis.

The notion that science improperly scoffs at the thought of ESP and roundly precludes it as impossible as a matter of some ideological affiliation is absolutely nonsense. There is simply no scientifically valid evidence for any such effect. If there were, these neuroscience boffins would be very, very excited.
 
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