To hell with all that! I am not going to be dragged off topic to defend my personal views. I have seen and read a lot of things on the internet that brought me to those views,
Oh dear.
but it is a waste of my time trawling around trying to provide evidence to support them.
That's understandable, considering most them don't
have any evidence to support them.
So here's an idea. Any claims on the internet that you can't at least find a cite for, don't post them.
from now on I will try to keep my personal views to myself and concentrate on the texts of the Quran. Thereby staying on topic.
The topic is "What the quran
really says". This implies interpretation, and unless that interpretation is a mutually agreed one it becomes your
personal view. So from now on I expect you will show us where your interpretations of what the Quran 'really' says are supported by scholars who are qualified to do so.
For example in the OP you said...
when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the flat earth and is reset every dawn , and I can prove it with the following hadith...
As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong. The quran is clearly saying the sun orbits the earth.
Yes, you are right. The Quran does indeed say the Sun orbits the Earth. According to Einstein this is correct. All motion is relative and no observation point is inherently preferred.
The heliocentric model is just as correct and generally more useful to astronomers. However in the popular press, classrooms and even some science textbooks, it is often either stated outright or strongly implied that the geocentric model is
wrong and the heliocentric model is the 'correct' one. This is not what the science says.
Unfortunately this incorrect belief is quite pervasive in our 'modern' world, which presents a quandary for Muslims who are pressed to resolve an apparent conflict with their belief that the Quran is inerrant -
even though they don't have to because there is no conflict. And they it do because - unlike some other religions - Islam accepts modern science.
In the small amount of googling I did, I found a few 'Imams' attempting to explain the 'anomaly' by hedging around it. They say that the science has evolved over time (which it has), that the Sun is not stationary but orbits the galaxy (which it does), or that the Quran doesn't say anything specific about it one way or the other (which is almost true). In fact the Quran simply echos the prevailing beliefs of the time just as the media does today.
Britannica has
this to say about it:-
The heliocentric, or Sun-centred, model of the solar system never gained wide support because its proponents could not explain why the relative positions of the stars seemed to remain the same despite the Earth’s changing viewpoints as it moved around the Sun. In the 2nd century ad, Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria suggested that this discrepancy could be resolved if it were assumed that the Earth was fixed in position, with the Sun and other bodies revolving around it. As a result, Ptolemy’s geocentric (Earth-centred) system dominated scientific thought for some 1,400 years.
As the saying goes "All models are wrong, but some are useful". From the point of view of a person going about their normal business on the Earth, thinking of the Sun as rising in the east and setting in the west, then going around the 'bottom' during the night, is more intuitive than imagining the Earth rotating as it goes around the Sun. For what the Quran was describing (how the Sun moved through the sky during each day) it was more
useful. The fact that they knew no different is irrelevant.
If the geocentric model is 'wrong' so is the heliocentric model. Those of us who point to the Quran and laugh at its ignorance should consider own own ignorance. But as you say, that's not what it's really about. The
real reason you are attacking the Quran is not because it isn't 'scientifically accurate' enough for you, but because you want to discredit the religion as a whole. This is exactly why some Muslims feel they have to defend it.
The problem is, you have read the Quran from cover to cover multiple times, but you never really understood what it was actually about. Humans are social animals, and when we work together we achieve great things. But to do that we have to agree on how to behave in ways that help the group as well as the individual, and we need a shared culture to communicate with each other effectively. Therefore we need rules, teaching and guidance. Both the Bible and the Quran were created for that purpose, and the 'God' which is quoted as the source is just an embodiment of the laws and advice contained in them.
When you attack the Quran you aren't just trying to destroy a religion, but a culture that has lasted thousands of years and has billions of members, a culture that has given them peace and prosperity. You may point to certain passeges that describe violence as if that is what it's all about, but you ignore the context.
Pick up a modern history book relating major events of the last two centuries and you will get just as much if not more violence - WWI, WWII, the Korean, Vietnamese and Gulf wars etc., right up to the present day where both nominally religious and secular nations at each others' throats. Throw in a bit of slavery, colonialism, corporate greed and general bigotry and you have plenty of material to rail against. But none of this means our societies on the whole aren't peaceful and our values worth maintaining.
Here is one article I can find, because it is on my time line on twitter where I am known as Dajjal. @dajjal_dd
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...nquiry-into-gulf-funding-of-british-extremism
The report concludes: “The attempt by several states to influence Islamic communities and advance an illiberal – and at times anti-western – version of the Islamic religion appears to have been an intentional and systematic policy, with the level of funding allocated to this effort believed to have grown in recent years.
“While some of this financing appears to originate from private individuals and independent foundations, research by the German intelligence agencies and others has pointed to these foundations being closely linked to governments of several Gulf states.”
How has this got anything to do with 'what the
quran really says', and how is it 'concentrating on the
texts of the Quran'?
Please stop trying to derail your own thread.
