Merged What the quran really says.

[Scorpion]

Lying, (Taqiya) is allowed in Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

 

[Scorpion]

Muhammad did not preach peace, he taught war.

Quran surah 2.216 from the M.M. Pickthall translation

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is distasteful unto you: But it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. And Allah knows, but you know not.

 

[TragicMonkey]

So glad someone came by to correct that hardcore Islamic fundamentalism this site is known for.

 

[Scorpion]

My question is why should we care what Quran really says? Why not the Bhagavad Gita, the Kojiki, the Zend Avesta, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Agamas, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas or the Satanic Bible?

Seriously. Why not the Lord of the Rings? One nonsense book after another. At least the Lord of the Rings was entertaining.

We should care what the Quran really says because some people who believe it is the word of God do terrible things because of what is in it.

I do not know most of the other books you mention, except the Bhagavad Gita of which I have a copy. It is a very inspiring book, although it is only part of the Mahabharata, a very long work of fiction.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

We should care what the Quran really says because some people who believe it is the word of God do terrible things because of what is in it.

The Quran

Relationship with other literature
The Bible

The Quran attributes its relationship with former books (the Torah and the Gospels) to their unique origin, saying all of them have been revealed by the one God...

The Quran recounts stories of many of the people and events recounted in Jewish and Christian sacred books (Tanakh, Bible) and devotional literature (Apocrypha, Midrash), although it differs in many details. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Eber, Shelah, Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Jethro, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Jonah, Aaron, Moses, Zechariah, John the Baptist and Jesus are mentioned in the Quran as prophets of God (see Prophets of Islam). In fact, Moses is mentioned more in the Quran than any other individual. Jesus is mentioned more often in the Quran than Muhammad, while Mary is mentioned in the Quran more than the New Testament.

If we should care what the Quran 'really' says then we should care what the Christian Bible says too, particularly those of us who live in a 'Christian nation' such as the U.S.

Terrorism in the United States

According to a 2017 report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office, "of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent)... In 2018, most ideologically motivated murders were linked to right-wing extremism.

Right-wing terrorism

Right-wing terrorism or far-right terrorism is terrorism that is motivated by a variety of different right-wing and far-right ideologies, most prominently by neo-Nazism, neo-fascism, white nationalism, white separatism, ethnonationalism, religious nationalism, and anti-government patriot/sovereign citizen beliefs and occasionally by anti-abortion and tax resistance. Modern right-wing terrorism first emerged in North America during the Reconstruction era

Christian terrorism

Christian terrorism comprises terrorist acts by groups or individuals who profess Christian motivations or goals. Christian terrorists justify their violent tactics through their interpretation of the Bible, in accordance with their own objectives and world view...

History
Ku Klux Klan

Vehemently anti-Catholic, the 1915 Klan had an explicitly Protestant Christian terrorist ideology, basing its beliefs in part on a "religious foundation" in Protestant Christianity and targeting Jews, Catholics, and other social or ethnic minorities... the goals of the KKK included an intent to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible"...
Mark Juergensmeyer, a former president of the American Academy of Religion... categorizes contemporary Christian terrorists as being a part of "religious activists from Algeria to Idaho, who have come to hate secular governments with an almost transcendent passion and dream of revolutionary changes that will establish a godly social order in the rubble of what the citizens of most secular societies regard as modern, egalitarian democracies"

Clearly the Christian Bible is just as much - if not more - worthy of our 'care' as the Quran.

But why stop there? No doubt other religious texts have also been used to justify doing terrible things - and secular writings too! White nationalism is on the rise so we should all care about what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, and Libertarian ideology threatens the entire planet so Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged is an essential read.

And those are just the obvious ones. We must be forever vigilant in rooting out cults of all persuasions and 'caring' about their religious texts. Take 'science fiction fans' for example. They will tell you that all the violence and horror in their books is just for entertainment. But when we examine what it really says something far more sinister is revealed. Isaac Asimov’s Foundation series was the inspiration for AUM Shinrikyo, a Japanese religious group that killed 13 people and injured over 5000 in the Tokyo subway sarin attack of 1995. But talk to any SF follower today and they will try to minimize the involvement of their sacred texts in this atrocity and others.

 

[Pixel42]

We should care what spiritualists say too, because their dogma about karma etc can lead them to justify doing nothing about other peoples' suffering.

Pretty much any kind of unevidenced belief has unfortunate consequences.

 

[winter salt]

I second that.

As I said, I suspect Scorpion of trying to rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy.

Scorpion, you are correct in that the quran is incorrect in a lot of things.

That is no surprise.

But what do you want to do with that knowledge?

I often ask this question to myself.
Ok now I'm an ex-muslim, one who can argue well against islam since I devoted such lifetime and mental energy to it in that I could have mastered 2 foreign languages, and I can at least leave a very bad taste, that won't leave, in any muslim who gets into it with me.
I've done it over and over, hundreds of times. Mostly on you tube commentaries.
First, I found that the religion is still consuming me, my time and mental energy, regardless of the side that I'm on, that bothered me a lot. I don't have to live my life telling every believer (and they're everywhere) that I don't believe in eternal burning for many reasons I have and they should have too. I have a limited time to live and religion is only one of the things that bother me in life. Going at it only robs me of that time. And people who are in it most likely enjoy it anyway.
But when I think about it on a larger scale, that is where I came from how the society has been formed through the history, if I succeeded in one televised debate to deconvert a whole country I don't know what would hold them together. You see, religion and pride in history as wrong as they can be has had a function in the forming of the society I found myself in. While it had a function in keeping them backward in many aspects of life, at the same time.
So the question gets deeper than, "I'll show anyone who threatens me with eternal punishment and social ostracism the truth of their religion".

 

[Scorpion]

I am bouncing this thread because I do not want to have a discussion in the arts section.
I have said on the 'what book are you reading' thread, That I just read the book,
'The complete infidels guide to the Koran ' by Robert Spencer. I recommended it to anyone interested in what the Quran actually says. It cuts to the core of the Quran and I have said it is an accurate honest description of what the Quran is all about.
I was called to account for that, and Robert Spencer was denounced as an islamophobe.

If he is one then so am I, because my reading of the Quran, which I did 20 years ago, tells me it is a book of evil lies about God. It is also the source of the violence demonstrated by many Muslims. They are only doing what the unholy Quran tells them to. Which is kill infidels, and leads to things like crashing planes into skyscrapers, and blowing up busses and tube trains.

I also purchased the book, 'The critical Quran' by Robert Spencer and I recommended that too to anyone interested in understanding the entire Quran. It is a criticism of the entire Pickthall translation of the Quran. It is well worth reading if like me, you want to stop Britain from becoming an Islamic state, which is the stated aim of many Muslim immigrants. It seems more and more likely. If we go down their next target will be the USA.
I do not think it will happen in my lifetime, because their prediction is it will happen by 2050. I will be dead by that time, and if I am not they will probably behead me under sharia law. Which says the penalty for blasphemy against Muhammad is beheading.

I have and will blaspheme Muhammad relentlessly on the internet, because I think he was a lying, evil, perverted scumbag.

 

[Robin]

I am bouncing this thread because I do not want to have a discussion in the arts section.
I have said on the 'what book are you reading' thread, That I just read the book,
'The complete infidels guide to the Koran ' by Robert Spencer. I recommended it to anyone interested in what the Quran actually says. It cuts to the core of the Quran and I have said it is an accurate honest description of what the Quran is all about.
I was called to account for that, and Robert Spencer was denounced as an islamophobe.

If he is one then so am I, because my reading of the Quran, which I did 20 years ago, tells me it is a book of evil lies about God. It is also the source of the violence demonstrated by many Muslims. They are only doing what the unholy Quran tells them to. Which is kill infidels, and leads to things like crashing planes into skyscrapers, and blowing up busses and tube trains.

I also purchased the book, 'The critical Quran' by Robert Spencer and I recommended that too to anyone interested in understanding the entire Quran. It is a criticism of the entire Pickthall translation of the Quran. It is well worth reading if like me, you want to stop Britain from becoming an Islamic state, which is the stated aim of many Muslim immigrants. It seems more and more likely. If we go down their next target will be the USA.
I do not think it will happen in my lifetime, because their prediction is it will happen by 2050. I will be dead by that time, and if I am not they will probably behead me under sharia law. Which says the penalty for blasphemy against Muhammad is beheading.

I have and will blaspheme Muhammad relentlessly on the internet, because I think he was a lying, evil, perverted scumbag.

But, like all "holy" books it contradicts itself. In Surah al-Muzzamil it says to give unbelievers a graceful avoidance and let them in peace a while and after that leave them to Allah. Typically extremists prefer the "Sword Surah" TO al-Muzzamil

It says in on place not to force anyone to religion and in another it says to force people to religion.

It says in one place that "this is the book in which there can be no doubt" and in another place seems to be suggesting a large use of figurative language in the Quran.

But I think that if someone is interested in what the Quran says then they should read it themselves, mostly it is quite straightforward.

 

[Robin]

I do not think it will happen in my lifetime, because their prediction is it will happen by 2050. I will be dead by that time, and if I am not they will probably behead me under sharia law. Which says the penalty for blasphemy against Muhammad is beheading.

Looxury! I dream of a nice quick beheading. They want to throw me off high building, crush me under 'eavy weight, stone me to death or just lock me in somewhere and let me die of thirst.


NB, seriously this is what all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence say, not just ISIS type extremists.

 

[Scorpion]

But, like all "holy" books it contradicts itself. In Surah al-Muzzamil it says to give unbelievers a graceful avoidance and let them in peace a while and after that leave them to Allah. Typically extremists prefer the "Sword Surah" TO al-Muzzamil

It says in on place not to force anyone to religion and in another it says to force people to religion.

It says in one place that "this is the book in which there can be no doubt" and in another place seems to be suggesting a large use of figurative language in the Quran.

But I think that if someone is interested in what the Quran says then they should read it themselves, mostly it is quite straightforward.

Thanks for those discrepancies. It says in the Quran if it were not from God you would find discrepancies or contradictions in it. Quran 4.82

If someone wants to know what is in the Quran before reading it I recommend Robert Spencer's book. 'The complete infidels guide to the Koran'
It will help them to understand the Quran when they come to read it. It is an affordable paperback.

I recommend a person who has not read the Quran to read it backward. From surah 114. The Quran is not chronological and the shortest surahs at the back are easier to read than plowing through surah 2. Mostly the surahs at the back were written first anyway.
The first surah reading it from the back that gives an idea of what Muhammad was all about is surah 111, in which he condemns his own aunt and uncle to burn in hell because they went around telling people he was a false prophet.

If they want to spend the money they could not do better than buy Spencer's
'The critical Quran' which is the complete Pickthall translation with copious critical notes on each surah.

I have the M.M.Pickthall translation, which I got free from Saudi Arabia, and I have written all over it making notes. For that alone I would be killed. I also have the Yusuf Ali translation with commentaries.
I think these two translations are probably the best English translations. It is useful to have more than one translation to compare so you do not make the mistake of taking any one translations verses absolutely literally.
Muslims will tell you that you cannot understand it unless you read it in Arabic. But that is cobblers. It does loose the poetic qualities it has in Arabic, but the texts are generally understandable.

 

[sackett]

My fave sura is Al Haq Patooie, "the Spoiled Soup," where it sez, "The infidels are like a medley of boiling beans, all different and impossible to count. The Messenger told you already, yes, dump them out and start over. His poetry is bollocks deep. Selah. Okay?"

Take note, "okay" is in the original, so now we may be at peace about the origin of the word. Same with algebra and alcohol. Sux 2 B a Christian, huh?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I am bouncing this thread because I do not want to have a discussion in the arts section.
I have said on the 'what book are you reading' thread, That I just read the book,
'The complete infidels guide to the Koran ' by Robert Spencer. I recommended it to anyone interested in what the Quran actually says. It cuts to the core of the Quran and I have said it is an accurate honest description of what the Quran is all about.

You and Robert Spencer have no idea what the Quran is all about.

The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran

by Robert Spencer

The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran exposes how the Koran incites hatred and violence and is anti-democratic, anti-freedom, and intolerant of any other ideology. Stripping out the obsolete debate, The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran focuses on the decrees toward Jews and Christians, how they were viewed by Muhammad, what “the infidels” have done wrong and what the Koran has in store for them...

In The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran you will learn:...

- Why Obama, Clinton, and others are dangerously close to supporting a multiculturalism based on an ideology that aims to destroy the principles America holds dear

So Robert, where's your book on 'The complete heretics guide to the Bible', where you focus on what Christians have in store for everyone else?

 

[Scorpion]

You and Robert Spencer have no idea what the Quran is all about.

Oh yea! Do you want to go toe to toe with me dismantling the meaning of the Quran verse by verse? I read the Quran all through twice 20 years ago, and constantly refer to it reading verses to refresh my mind.

I can tell you the meaning of the Quran in a sentence.

It says obey Allah and the messenger.

It says this many times through out the Quran. That means obey Muhammad. Fight for him and die for him and give him one fifth of the spoils of war, or you will burn in hellfire forever.

I do not give a damn what is says in the bible and I don't suppose Robert Spence does either. because Christians and Jews do not want to take over the world. But it is the stated aim of many Muslims and they are doing it right now. I believe countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia are funding the invasion of Britain by paying young men to come here claiming to be refugees. Saudi Arabia also funds the building of mosques, and there are estimated to be up to three thousand mosques in Britain today.
The London mayor is trying to erase our culture and import more Muslims.
There are many cities in England now with Muslim mayors. If you want I can give you a list. Now Humza Yousaf is taking over Scotland.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Oh yea! Do you want to go toe to toe with me dismantling the meaning of the Quran verse by verse?

'Dismantling the meaning', verse by verse? Like I said, you have no idea...

I read the Quran all through twice 20 years ago, and constantly refer to it reading verses to refresh my mind.

What a waste. I've read it zero times, and yet I understand more about it than you do.

I can tell you the meaning of the Quran in a sentence.

It says obey Allah and the messenger.

Allah is supernatural, and therefore by definition does not exist. Nobody can be a messenger for an entity that doesn't exist.

It says this many times through out the Quran. That means obey Muhammad. Fight for him and die for him and give him one fifth of the spoils of war, or you will burn in hellfire forever.

Not that different from the Bible.

I do not give a damn what is says in the bible and I don't suppose Robert Spence does either. because Christians and Jews do not want to take over the world.

You're kidding, right? Nobody can be that ignorant.

But it is the stated aim of many Muslims and they are doing it right now. I believe countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia are funding the invasion of Britain by paying young men to come here claiming to be refugees.

Doesn't seem to be working...

FACTS ABOUT REFUGEES

Are there many refugees and asylum seekers in the UK?

No. According to UNHCR statistics, as of November 2022 there were 231,597 refugees, 127,421 pending asylum cases and 5,483  stateless persons  in the UK including recent Ukrainians refugees.

That’s only half a per cent (0.54%) of the UK’s total population.

Saudi Arabia also funds the building of mosques, and there are estimated to be up to three thousand mosques in Britain today.

There are about forty thousand churches in the UK, more than the number of pubs. This despite the fact that less than 6% of UK citizens are 'practicing' Christians.

The London mayor is trying to erase our culture and import more Muslims.
There are many cities in England now with Muslim mayors. If you want I can give you a list. Now Humza Yousaf is taking over Scotland.

‘Facts’ about UK Muslims are mostly wrong

21 December 2022
Mosque numbers

The post claims there are over 3,000 mosques.

In 2020, the Muslim Council of Britain said in written evidence to the Lords Public Services committee on the subject of lessons from the coronavirus pandemic, that there are “about 1,200 mosques” in Britain...

Muslim mayors

The post claims that the mayors of London, Birmingham, Leeds, Blackburn, Sheffield, Oxford, Luton, Oldham and Rochdale are all Muslim. This is almost certainly not true now, although they have all had Muslim mayors at some point in the past...

London currently has a directly elected mayor who is Muslim—Sadiq Khan. A few of the other places listed appear to have Muslim mayors at the moment, but not all.

 

[Scorpion]

Righty oh then ! In order to save myself the tedious task of creating separate boxes for each of your quotes, I am typing in my comments between them in capitols.

'Dismantling the meaning', verse by verse? Like I said, you have no idea...
What a waste. I've read it zero times, and yet I understand more about it than you do.

DON'T TALK RUBBISH, IF YOU HAVE NOT READ IT, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Allah is supernatural, and therefore by definition does not exist. Nobody can be a messenger for an entity that doesn't exist.

1.8 BILLION MUSLIMS BELIEVE IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, AND THEY THINK THEY ARE OBEYING HIM WHEN THEY KILL INFIDELS.

Not that different from the Bible.

TO HELL WITH THE BIBLE,IT MAKE NO DIFFERENCE WHAT IT SAYS BECAUSE IT IS ISLAM THAT TEACHES MUSLIMS TO DESPISE UNBELIEVERS. THE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE LARGELY BENIGHN IN THE PRESENT WORLD.

You're kidding, right? Nobody can be that ignorant.

JUST WHAT CONQUESTS OF OTHER NATIONS ARE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS PLANNING?

Doesn't seem to be working...

IT IS WORKING, BRITAIN IS BEING SWAMPED BY YOUNG MEN WHO THROW AWAY THEIR PASSPORTS SO THEY CAN LIE ABOUT THEIR ORIGIN
AND CLAIM THEY ARE ASYLUM SEEKERS.



There are about forty thousand churches in the UK, more than the number of pubs. This despite the fact that less than 6% of UK citizens are 'practicing' Christians.

I HAVE SEEN THE NUMBER OF MOSQUES QUOTED AS BEING UP TO THREE THOUSAND ON SEVERAL WEB PAGES BUT I AM WILLING TO ACCEPT IT MAY BE LESS.


‘Facts’ about UK Muslims are mostly wrong

THE MAYOR OF LONDON IS HAVING STREET NAMES CHANGED, AND STATUES TAKEN DOWN BECAUSE THEY ARE OFFENSIVE TO MUSLIMS. HE ALSO APPEARS TO BE DELIBERATELY INSULTING THE BRITISH PEOPLE BY THINGS LIKE HAVING A STATUE PUT UP TO COMMEMORATE BLACK SLAVES TAKEN BY BRITAIN.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, can we get back to discussing the unholy Quran? No of course we can't because you have not read it. And you are calling me ignorant.

 

[catsmate]

Oh yea! Do you want to go toe to toe with me dismantling the meaning of the Quran verse by verse? I read the Quran all through twice 20 years ago, and constantly refer to it reading verses to refresh my mind.

I can tell you the meaning of the Quran in a sentence.

It says obey Allah and the messenger.

Jesus and Mo did it better.

I do not give a damn what is says in the bible and I don't suppose Robert Spence does either. because Christians and Jews do not want to take over the world.

You really are out of tough with reality.

The London mayor is trying to erase our culture and import more Muslims.
There are many cities in England now with Muslim mayors. If you want I can give you a list. Now Humza Yousaf is taking over Scotland.

OK, now you're descending to xenophobic conspiracy rantings.

 

[Scorpion]

Jesus and Mo did it better.
You really are out of tough with reality.
OK, now you're descending to xenophobic conspiracy rantings.

So! Is anyone going to actually discuss the Quran here. Or are you all just going to keep talking a lot of trash?

 

[Parsman]

Oh yea! Do you want to go toe to toe with me dismantling the meaning of the Quran verse by verse? I read the Quran all through twice 20 years ago, and constantly refer to it reading verses to refresh my mind.

I can tell you the meaning of the Quran in a sentence.

It says obey Allah and the messenger.

It says this many times through out the Quran. That means obey Muhammad. Fight for him and die for him and give him one fifth of the spoils of war, or you will burn in hellfire forever.

I do not give a damn what is says in the bible and I don't suppose Robert Spence does either. because Christians and Jews do not want to take over the world. But it is the stated aim of many Muslims and they are doing it right now. I believe countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia are funding the invasion of Britain by paying young men to come here claiming to be refugees. Saudi Arabia also funds the building of mosques, and there are estimated to be up to three thousand mosques in Britain today.
The London mayor is trying to erase our culture and import more Muslims.
There are many cities in England now with Muslim mayors. If you want I can give you a list. Now Humza Yousaf is taking over Scotland.

It must be interesting to live in your head. I am a Scot, living in Scitland, and just because Humza won a party election to become First Minister I am not worried I'll be waking up in a theocratic Muslim state anytime soon. In fact one of the reasons he won (just) was that his main challenger was a Wee Free Church Christian who thought children born out of wedlock were a problem. I'm much more worried about that given the minority of people who are religious in Scotland are predominantly Christian.

 

[Scorpion]

It must be interesting to live in your head. I am a Scot, living in Scitland, and just because Humza won a party election to become First Minister I am not worried I'll be waking up in a theocratic Muslim state anytime soon. In fact one of the reasons he won (just) was that his main challenger was a Wee Free Church Christian who thought children born out of wedlock were a problem. I'm much more worried about that given the minority of people who are religious in Scotland are predominantly Christian.

Don't worry, Humza will fix the problem of children. he is committed to allowing abortion for any reason including sex discrimination, right up to full term before birth.

He also began his appointment with a speech complaining that all the people in charge in Scotland are white.