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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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So we have :

1. Trans gender people do not believe they can change their genetic makeup not even the biological extremists.

Yes. Nobody has claimed that genes can be changed, and nobody is claiming that anyone else claimed that genes can be changed. You came up with that idea on your own.

2. The "sex is real" quote is referring to differences in sex that are genetically encoded.

The piece you're missing is that the extremists don't think those genetically encoded differences matter (not just for some purposes, but for any purposes), and Rowling is saying that they do. That is the sense in which they are "real": they make an actual important difference, and cannot be ignored. You keep talking about how the meaning of words in use typically extends beyond narrow dictionary definitions, but you missed that entirely when it came to the word "real".
 
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I dunno if it's motte-and-bailey, or moving goalposts, or changing horses, or what, but there seems to be a phased argument approach from the TRA side.

Phase 1: "Genetic differences aren't real."

Phase 2: "Okay, genetic differences are real, but they don't matter."

Phase 3: "Okay, genetic differences do matter, but that's okay because the genetic differences that do matter are the transgentic ones."
 
Some trans women refer to themselves as biologically female.

They still aren't claiming that they can change their genetic makeup.

You might enquire more closely as to what they mean by it.

Aren’t they? I don’t know. It’s unclear whether or not they think they’ve changed their genetic makeup. They both seem to studiously avoid answering that question.

What both K. Montgomerie and I. Willoughby have been very clear about is that (they believe) the genetics are irrelevant, and the only thing that matters are the secondary sex characteristics and traits which can be altered by using opposite sex hormones and via surgical procedures. That, they say, makes them every bit as female as natal females who are born with (or whose bodies are organized around) the ability to gestate and give birth.
 
What both K. Montgomerie and I. Willoughby have been very clear about is that (they believe) the genetics are irrelevant, and the only thing that matters are the secondary sex characteristics and traits which can be altered by using opposite sex hormones and via surgical procedures. That, they say, makes them every bit as female as natal females who are born with (or whose bodies are organized around) the ability to gestate and give birth.

Lipstick and breasts count, but ovaries don't?
 
And?

Yes, we are allowed to be offended and to also offend. These are not mutually exclusive. In fact, we tend to offend in response to taking offense. It's quite ordinary. Permission isn't required.



That's nice. The more interesting question is, which way should that hypocrisy resolve? Show body-part-haver nomenclature be considered offensive or not? Where do you stand on that?

I stand thus: if you decry a behavior as being so absolutely dreadful it shouldn't be done, you shouldn't do it yourself.
 
1. You claimed use of the term "cervix-haver" "robs me of my core humanity, it relegates me to nothing more than a set of bodily functions. It is incredibly offensive." Did you post this? Did you mean it?

2. You have in the past used the term "penis-haver" on at least two occasions to refer to others. Did you post those?

You may imagine that your prior posts "points", whatever they were meant to be, somehow excuse your use of terminology equivalent to what you yourself have claimed is an incredibly offensive slur, but I disagree. I see four possibilities here:

A) You didn't make those posts at all, it was an imposter using your account.
B) You don't consider "penis-haver" offensive while you do consider "cervix-haver" offensive.
C) You do consider "penis-haver" offensive but in those posts you wanted to be offensive.D) You don't actually feel that strongly about "-haver" terminology but were just being hyperbolic and overly dramatic.



It's neither checkers nor chess, it's a public discussion in which your prior remarks are visible and can be set alongside your more recent remarks and the contrast shown. Whether you wish to discuss that contrast is up to you, but certainly others can draw their own conclusions about the matter.

Reality is closest to C. I find being reduced to an organ or a function to be highly offensive. I expressed my view on it, as did several other females (and some males). That view was met by a collection of males insisting that it wasn't a big deal, I (and any other female who is offended) was overreacting and should just calm down about it.

I made posts illustrating the inherent dehumanization, while being fully aware that I was doing so.

That you don't understand that, and you don't grok the context is not my fault. That's all you.
 
An interesting theory (I do wish people would have let Emily's Cat come up with it herself) but the posts I quoted were from February 2021, whereas the post complaining about "cervix-haver" is from this month. If that was Emily's Cat's point she waited a very long time for someone else to make it for her.

Go look harder.
 
Some trans women refer to themselves as biologically female.

They still aren't claiming that they can change their genetic makeup.

You might enquire more closely as to what they mean by it.

What do you think "biologically female" actually means? There is exactly zero way in which a male can become a "biological female".

Well, except for the humpty-dumpty method where words just don't have meanings.
 
I stand thus: if you decry a behavior as being so absolutely dreadful it shouldn't be done, you shouldn't do it yourself.

I don't really believe you. Among other things, "so absolutely dreadful" sounds like you're establishing a false dichotomy between what's perfectly acceptable and what's so horrible it's unforgivable. But nobody, including you, actually thinks like that. Not only is there a spectrum of behavior, but there's also context. Being a jerk is often to be avoided, but sometimes it's justified. Being mean to one person and nice to another person isn't necessarily hypocritical.

But the problem with your position is more fundamental than that. If you truly don't care about the behavior itself, then hypocrisy doesn't even matter, especially when the person you think is being hypocritical has no power. And none of us (aside from the mods) have any power here. There are no consequences to anyone's hypocrisy beyond the behavior itself. You can simply ignore Emily's Cat's complaints as being irrelevant, but her alleged hypocrisy doesn't matter because her complaints would be irrelevant to you even if she wasn't hypocritical, because you don't care about the behavior either way. It only really matters if you DO care about the behavior, and you want it resolved in one direction or the other.

I think you do have a stance on the issue, though I don't know what it is. I think you don't want to defend it. If I'm wrong, though, we're back to your complaint about hypocrisy being irrelevant.
 
Communist Party of Britain view on the Scottish Gender Recognition Bill

https://www.communistparty.org.uk/the-gender-recognition-bill-and-equality-law/

Well now I find myself in a quandary.

I am not a fan of communism as an economic philosophy. A full discussion is well out of scope for this thread, but the short version is that for communism to be effective, humans would have to stop being humans altogether. Of course, unfettered and unregulated capitalism presents a very high risk of exploitation, so that's not great either.

But it does put me in a bind when the only parties that actually understand what sex is, and can understand the easily foreseeable consequences of gender identity ideology... is one whose core concept and foundational principles I oppose.

This is a very weird time to live in.
 
Some trans women refer to themselves as biologically female.

They still aren't claiming that they can change their genetic makeup.

Nobody said they were. That's your own straw man.

You might enquire more closely as to what they mean by it.

The logical implication of what they mean (though they try not to say the quiet part out loud) is that biology is a social construct, and thus sex is not real.
 
I don't really believe you. Among other things, "so absolutely dreadful" sounds like you're establishing a false dichotomy between what's perfectly acceptable and what's so horrible it's unforgivable. But nobody, including you, actually thinks like that. Not only is there a spectrum of behavior, but there's also context. Being a jerk is often to be avoided, but sometimes it's justified. Being mean to one person and nice to another person isn't necessarily hypocritical.

I'm not the one who says "-haver" is such a terrible thing to say, that was Emily's Cat who said that. My belief on that was Possibility D, above: she was just being hyperbolic and overdramatic. But she has claimed that no, the terminology is very dreadful and she was employing it on purpose, to make a point.

Which explanation I don't believe because the posts in question weren't about the terminology, they simply employed it. Attempts to explain it away as making a point are, I feel, attempts to retrofit the more recent post to those two years prior. I've been told "context" and "grok"....but without accompanying links to that context because that was not the context.

But the problem with your position is more fundamental than that. If you truly don't care about the behavior itself, then hypocrisy doesn't even matter, especially when the person you think is being hypocritical has no power.

I disagree. Principles exist: integrity, honesty, and treating others as you'd like to be treated. Claiming to be against a thing while doing it oneself is a character failing. A serious one, in many cultures. Whether the person "has power" or not is irrelevant.

And none of us (aside from the mods) have any power here. There are no consequences to anyone's hypocrisy beyond the behavior itself. You can simply ignore Emily's Cat's complaints as being irrelevant, but her alleged hypocrisy doesn't matter because her complaints would be irrelevant to you even if she wasn't hypocritical, because you don't care about the behavior either way. It only really matters if you DO care about the behavior, and you want it resolved in one direction or the other.

Are you really arguing that posters should be unchallenged on hypocrisy and contradiction? What would be the point of having a debate in a thread if it will not be an honest debate? Or perhaps it's just this one thread that's different.

I think you do have a stance on the issue, though I don't know what it is. I think you don't want to defend it. If I'm wrong, though, we're back to your complaint about hypocrisy being irrelevant.

Again, "the issue" isn't use of terminology "[organ]-haver". "The issue" is posters posting hyperbole about how awful a terminology is, despite employing it themselves in the past. What I think about "-haver" verbiage won't change someone else's behavior from hypocritical to honest. But since you're dying to know, I think calling someone a "[organ]-haver" is ridiculous, and makes the speaker look like a fool. It's clunky wording, and I suspect it reveals more about the speaker's psychosexual hangups than they realize.
 
I'm not the one who says "-haver" is such a terrible thing to say, that was Emily's Cat who said that. My belief on that was Possibility D, above: she was just being hyperbolic and overdramatic. But she has claimed that no, the terminology is very dreadful and she was employing it on purpose, to make a point.
Ahem...
I expressed my view on it, as did several other females (and some males). That view was met by a collection of males insisting that it wasn't a big deal, I (and any other female who is offended) was overreacting and should just calm down about it.
So... thank you for supporting my point, I guess?
 
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Some trans women refer to themselves as biologically female.

They still aren't claiming that they can change their genetic makeup.

You might enquire more closely as to what they mean by it.

We know what they mean by it. Go make your own enquiries, and let us know your findings, if you think they'll contribute materially to this discussion.
 
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