"I am Tiger Woods."

I'd suggest you start by reading John Money's papers.



No, quite the contrary. I have a well-developed theory supported by quite a bit of evidence.

You mean the "love map" business? So, if I may put this crudely, if I get a hardon for Asian guys, it must be something my parents taught me? I'm pretty damn sure that's not the case. I think this love map business sounds far too relationship-oriented to explain pure physical attraction, lust, and the phenomenon described by eminent relationship expert Six Mixalot in his work "I Like Big Butts".

eta: Triple walrus damnation! It never fails! I manage a completely serious set of posts, then the very first time in a thread I get a little, uh, monkey in my prose, it lands on the top of a page!! Argh! It's a conspiracy against me!
 
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You mean the "love map" business? So, if I may put this crudely, if I get a hardon for Asian guys, it must be something my parents taught me?

No, but thanks for playing anyway. We've got some nice parting gifts for you backstage, including a copy of "Reading Comprehension and Critical Thinking : The Home Game."

I think this love map business sounds far too relationship-oriented to explain pure physical attraction, lust, and the phenomenon described by eminent relationship expert Six Mixalot in his work "I Like Big Butts".

Well, I'll let you know when your personal intuition rises to the level of a scientific investigation. Don't call us, we'll call you.
 
No, but thanks for playing anyway. We've got some nice parting gifts for you backstage, including a copy of "Reading Comprehension and Critical Thinking : The Home Game."



Well, I'll let you know when your personal intuition rises to the level of a scientific investigation. Don't call us, we'll call you.


I see. You have a theory, but you're not willing to share it. You also are too good to discuss the matter with little ol' monkey, who is not sufficiently highbrow for your mighty wisdom. Thanks for the patronizing, by the way, that does the JREF mission so much good.
 
Phil said:
Sorry you think this is an attack.
I know it's an attack. I've already stated that the purpose is to start a discussion. The erosion of our racial boundaries is fascinating to me and, I'm sure, to a lot of other people. We'll have to invent new ways to discriminate against each other...and regardless discrimination will become far far less prominent in the future.

But by the same token, I've heard people say that they'd be sad to see the variety of 'ethnicities' that we have disappear. I can understand that also.

It's a relevant topic that isn't discussed much. And the reason it's probably not discussed much is people like you stopping us from creating a forum where we can share our ideas without being judged. Thanks, pal.

(I think jj handled the rest of that issue extremely well)

TragicMonkey said:
This is fairly interesting. I've often wondered why people are attracted to some races and not others. Is it a psychological thing, a genetic thing, instinct, or just another personal idiosyncratic preference like being attracted to people with long hair or large bosoms or snub noses?
I don't know if the big-breast thing is idiosyncratic. Can't large-breasted women provide more milk for infants? (I could be off here)

I read an interesting article in Discover magazine about this, describing how almost everything that attracts us to someone has a genetic/evolutionary link.

And is it just me, or are mixed-race people more attractive, in general, than unmixed people from the same races the mixed-race person is descended from?

keys-alicia-050714.jpg
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amerie-2-sized.jpg


It's just you. :)

(or maybe just the two of us)

Although that could be a social thing rather than a genetic one: it could be that in order to overcome the boundaries of race-preference, the parents had to be unusually attractive themselves, and each passed their attractiveness on to their child.

I thought about it and I'm not sure. Tiger Woods's parents aren't particularly attractive and he's a very good-looking guy. Smart, tall and athletic too.

(eta2: then again, it might just be the exoticism factor adding bonus points to the mixed individual's attractiveness.)
I'm not sure. I've seen some unattractive mixed people, and Amerie (third picture above) did get a nose-job...but by and large they do seem to be uncommonly good-looking.

As a side note, I find Mexican and particularly Brazilian women (who are a long-time mix of Native American and Spanish people) to be uncommonly attractive. That just might be me, though.
 
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You have a theory, but you're not willing to share it..

No, I'm perfectly willing to share it. I'm even willing to discuss it at length; psychology is a personal interest of mine.

I just missed the part of "There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start. I take it to mean that you don't have any theories" that was either a request for more information or an invitation to discuss.
 
I don't know if the big-breast thing is idiosyncratic. Can't large-breasted women provide more milk for infants? (I could be off here)

No, large breasts do not give more milk. Actually, it's rather the opposite -- infants have a harder time feeding from large breasts because the curvature of the breast keeps them from getting the nipple far enough into their mouths for proper suction. Most mammals, including primates, have much smaller breasts with much more pronounced nipples -- think about the teats on a cow's udder as an example.

... and, as it happens, the current Western/European/US preference for large breasts is rather strongly believed to be mostly cultural. Other times and other cultures have distinctly different preferences about how large womens' breasts "should" be for true beauty. As recently as the 1920s in the United States, for example, the ideal of beautiful women was almost flat-chested. Look at the 'flapper' pictures sometimes.

On the other hand, there does appear to be some universal preference about waist/hip ratio; it seems that having a waist about 70% of one's hips is universally regarded as beautiful. There is some suggestion that this may be based partly on evolution, both as a measure of health, and as a measure of capacity to safely bear children.
 
I just missed the part of "There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start. I take it to mean that you don't have any theories" that was either a request for more information or an invitation to discuss.

Ah. Rereading, I see that I misinterpreted "No -- they connect with your childhood upbringing, based on how they appear in the swimsuit ad." I thought you were making some kind of joke about the model thinking about me, whereas you were reiterating the business about how my response to the person is due to something in my own psychology, from my upbringing. Sorry! Chalk it up as another casualty of the pitfalls of the active verb.

As for the "so many things wrong", that was a joke, because I am not the sort of person who'd be interested in Mrs Gundersson. (It was also a Simpsons reference.)

Sorry for the hissy fit.

But I still disagree that it's all down to childhood upbringing. Not everyone encounters people of all races in childhood; how then, to explain an adult attraction or repulsion?
 
Could you explain this question? . . .

I did in subsequent posts, and I don't feel like doing it again.

. . . It seems quite rude to me. . .

Your opinion is duly noted.

. . . I've made the same observation that we're headed toward a more uniform world, racially, and wondered what the social and economic repercussions would be. . .

You are clearly a visionary.

. . . Your question, in that light, is both presumptive and insulting. . . .

Because you have "made the same observation that we're headed toward a more uniform world, racially, and wondered what the social and economic repercussions would be" my question is presumptive and insulting???

This must be the new logic I've been hearing so dang much about. Let me try:

I saw a beautiful woman with dark hair at lunch, so in that light, you have a poor singing voice.

Yeah, it's fun.

. . . You owe us clear evidence of "fears and insecurities", as well as evidence that the issue is "insignificant". If you can't come up with that evidence, then you really ought to apologize for a really bad job of mind-reading. . . .

The only thing I owe is money to the bank and a few bookies. I owe you nothing.

. . . If you can't come up with that evidence, then you really ought to apologize for a really bad job of mind-reading. . . .

If you can't garner the meaning of a post, then you ought not respond. I made no assertions or claims that require me to produce evidence. I merely asked a question.

To refresh your memory, I asked EGarrette: "What kind of fears and insecurities do you harbor that you concern yourself with such insignificant ideas?"

To which he could reply, "None, and I don't consider the ideas insignificant", and I would have been satisfied, and gone on my merry way.


Given the annals of human history, it is profoundly ignorant to regard the end of racial boundaries as "tripe". . .

Your opinion, once again, is duly noted.

. . . You have, then, I gather, not looked at the data on mixed race marriages lately? . . .

As a matter of fact, I have.

. . . Sorry, chap, but in fact interracial marriages are becoming a lot more common in a lot of places . . .

No need to apologize. I've misinterpreted data myself before.

I don't deny that mixed marriages are common, but we must consider the statistics of large numbers in this case.

If no one out of 6 billion people had a horn growing out of his forehead, and then over a period of say ten years 13 people emerged with horns growing out of their foreheads, it would indeed be accurate to say that people with horns growing out of their foreheads are becoming more common.

But it would be incorrect to conclude that, based on those 13 people, soon all people will have horns growing out of their foreheads.

A trend does not necessarily ensure a new paradigm.

. . . You know, I'm starting to think you're afraid of this issue. . .

That is a misperception on your part.

. . . Racial discrimination, as bad as it is (and no, I'm not supporting it at all when I say this) is presently one of the big sociological things that makes our world what it is. . . .

Yep.

. . . If that issue disappears, that will be a fundamental change. Will it be replaced by something else, or will something more basic happen? . . .

I don't know.

. . . Straw man. Nobody's suggested otherwise.

Straw man. Also, define "vacuum". By many definitions, much of space is a hard vacuum.

Straw man. . . .

I must apologize, I often forget that some people have no sense of humor, and that they refuse to use the language the rest of us are using.

I promise in the future to refrain from making a point using increasingly over-exaggerated examples, because where that works to get a laugh with most people, it flies miles over the heads of people with no sense of humor.

For those who require straight-forward, no nonsense use of English, without any irony, sarcasm, or satire, I will include an annotated version of all my posts at the bottom of the page*. I will also include a link to a dictionary for those who have trouble divining the meaning of "vacuum" in certain contexts.

Phil said: It won't have any affect on anything except to cause biggots a lot of heartache a priori.

. . . Both a straw man and an unsupported claim. Please show us how you know that this will cause bigots any heartache at all. . . .

Let me first direct your attention to my above comments about language and meaning. For the uninitiated, I was using the word "heartache" to infer that the mixing of races wrankles a bigot in some way; it causes fear, anger, what have you.

Secondly, let me also direct your attention to a key phrase in my statement. See a priori.

"A priori" means before the fact. Since we still have many separate races on this planet, this era, the time in which we are currently living, is before the fact of a single "mutt" race.

Thirdly, I haven't the time nor the inclination to provide examples of all the bigoted acts we perpetrate on one another in this day and age. However, a simple Google search, or even a glance at your local newspaper should help you find the support you're looking for.

. . . In fact, one of the interesting questions involved is "what will people who have to act like that use as their criterion". Again, I'm not supporting their behavior, but I am observing that some people seem to have this particular tribal view of things as perhaps even an innate construction. . .

Yep.

Phil said: The only thing I can think for why you would post such absurd questions is you harbor fear that your own race will die out, or that you harbor anger that not everyone cares enough about their race to keep it within the family, so to speak.

. . . . And now a lot more unsupported, completely wild conjecture. . . .?

You say that like it's a bad thing. (Whoops. Forgot. . . no humor.)

. . . . Please explain why you see fit to make appalling accusations, with no support or evidence for them whatsoever . . . .

If you'll notice, I in fact made no accusations at all, let alone any appalling ones. Perhaps one day you will see fit to read things more carefully.

I simply related to EGarrette the only reason I could think for anyone to be asking the questions he asked. All he need do (and he still can), is say, "No, Phil, there is more to my curiosity than that", and again, I'd go on merry way.

. . . simply because someone asked an interesting, non-trivial question that is supported by present marriage and childbearing statistics, at least in the 1st world. . . ..

Well, when you get a chance, look at the data for China, and India, and really Asia as a whole. You know, those places where most of the people on this planet live?

. . . you're building straw man after straw man, building an edifice of your own to burn down around your opponent, making claims counter to the current first-world statistics, and then ascribing insulting motivations to your opponent without any supporting evidence whatsoever. . . .

My opponent??

What is this professional wrestling?

Did I walk into a smack down by accident?

Contrary to any delusions you hold, many of us here don't enter a thread with an adversarial mindset, and I apologize to EGarrette if I came off that way. The title and the picture in the opening post led me to believe the thread was borne of some frivilous notions, but if that is not the case, I apologize to him for the misunderstanding.

. . . Yeah. I have to ask.

Why does this bother you so much?

The depth of your misperception is mind boggling.


*Annotated post: I disagree with jj

Webster's online
 
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Sorry, chap, but in fact interracial marriages are becoming a lot more common in a lot of places.

I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is, it could be because interracial marriages are more socially acceptable now, and not necessarily related to an increase in attractiveness to other races.

If gay marriage was legalized/acceptable, we would see more of those, too. Doesn't mean more men became gay. Or would a greater acceptance lead to a greater percentage of gay men?
 
Ah. Rereading, I see that I misinterpreted "No -- they connect with your childhood upbringing, based on how they appear in the swimsuit ad." I thought you were making some kind of joke about the model thinking about me, whereas you were reiterating the business about how my response to the person is due to something in my own psychology, from my upbringing. Sorry! Chalk it up as another casualty of the pitfalls of the active verb.

Acknowledged, and I apologize for my sarcasm.

At more length, then. Let's take a longer look at you and the swimsuit model. (Thanks, folks, I'll be here all week! Don't forget to tip your waitresses.) Obviously, the model has no personal contact with you; her upbringing is largely irrelevant to the issue of whether you find her attractive, since she has no idea whose looking at her photograph.

However, you, looking at her, find her (photo) attractive.

Money's theory is that she shares characteristics with other people you have associated with in early childhood (mostly your parents, both your mother and your father, but others as well). Not all these characteristics are strictly racial, either -- for example, the way this hot Swede wears her hair may be very similar to the way a person you knew and liked wore her (or even his) hair. Her smile may remind you of someone else's smile, without necessarily having that other person be a cute blonde female Swede.

Using TIger Woods as a more concrete example -- assuming you find him to be attractive, what about him is attractive? It's probably not simply the fact that he's multiracial. Most people would instead point to specific features -- he's got a good smile, nice cheekbones, is athletic-looking, &c. There's nothing specifically "multiracial" about his smile; anyone could have his smile if they were sufficiently lucky. (Damn them, anyway).
 
Money's theory is that she shares characteristics with other people you have associated with in early childhood (mostly your parents, both your mother and your father, but others as well). Not all these characteristics are strictly racial, either -- for example, the way this hot Swede wears her hair may be very similar to the way a person you knew and liked wore her (or even his) hair. Her smile may remind you of someone else's smile, without necessarily having that other person be a cute blonde female Swede.

But how would you go about proving such a thing? In childhood, you're exposed to millions of influences.

Using TIger Woods as a more concrete example -- assuming you find him to be attractive, what about him is attractive? It's probably not simply the fact that he's multiracial. Most people would instead point to specific features -- he's got a good smile, nice cheekbones, is athletic-looking, &c. There's nothing specifically "multiracial" about his smile; anyone could have his smile if they were sufficiently lucky. (Damn them, anyway).

I'm not sure. It's the same difficulty as proving the childhood-influence thing: how do you know why you find a person attractive? Which variable is the one responsible? Or are they active in combination?
 
All I know is that, for the most part, black guys sat with black guys, and white guys sat with white guys, and Hispanic guys sat with Hispanic guys, on the mess decks in the Navy. It wasn't racism, it was more about being comfortable with people of the same culture.

The irony is that the racism of the majority created mini-cultures. So even though the racism has been watered down or legislated away, the effects are long lasting.

But a black American would probably sit down with white Americans before he would sit down with black Nigerians.
 
But how would you go about proving such a thing? In childhood, you're exposed to millions of influences.

None of which explain why women from India don't turn me on in the slightest.

Asian women, sure. Black women, sure. Hispanic women, sure. White women, of course.

Indians? Nope. Not at all.

Go ahead. Throw the best looking Indian woman you can find at me. There will be nothing there for me.
 
It is precisely the fear of the elimination of the white race through interbreeding that gets white racists all hot and bothered.


Which very nearly rises to a good reason to intermarry, in my book.
 
I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is, it could be because interracial marriages are more socially acceptable now, and not necessarily related to an increase in attractiveness to other races.

I'm not making any guess as to why. If I had to guess, it would be "level of education".
 
I'm not making any guess as to why. If I had to guess, it would be "level of education".

I don't know. When it comes to human nature, I don't even try to guess any more. Coming up with a formula for human nature is as bad as trying to legislate it.

It reminds me of putting women on combat ships and ordering everybody not to have sex with each other.
 
Money's theory is that she shares characteristics with other people you have associated with in early childhood (mostly your parents, both your mother and your father, but others as well). Not all these characteristics are strictly racial, either -- for example, the way this hot Swede wears her hair may be very similar to the way a person you knew and liked wore her (or even his) hair. Her smile may remind you of someone else's smile, without necessarily having that other person be a cute blonde female Swede.

Hm, I'm married to an asian (of chinese extraction) person. There was not a single asian person (literally) in my childhood. There wasn't even an asian person in my TOWN during my childhood. (again, literally)

Now, yes, that's a single anecdote, agreed.
 
Hm, I'm married to an asian (of chinese extraction) person. There was not a single asian person (literally) in my childhood. There wasn't even an asian person in my TOWN during my childhood. (again, literally)

You're making the same mistake the Monkey is -- treating "race" as a single, unified trait.

There may not have been any Asians in your town, but there might well have been people with dark, straight hair. I have a weakness for dark, straight hair myself, which is part of why I was so delighted when I got a chance to visit Japan a few years ago and found myself surrounded by a truly phenomenal number of astonishingly beautiful people....

I assume you didn't marry your wife merely because she was Asian. I assume that she has other features that make her attractive in your eyes. How many of them can only be found in Asians?
 

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