Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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d4m10n said:
Why? We were discussing whether there was a problem with homophobia in a specific clinical context. If you admit steps need to be taken, I'll just take the win.
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So you are going to say something incoherent and declare victory?

Rather than address the argument?

It's coming to be a pattern among you lot.
 
Robin said:
Rather than address the argument?
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If you want to have an argument about what happened at the Tavistock, it would be helpful if you read a book about what happened. Alternatively, there is the Cass Report or maybe the Bell Report.
 
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d4m10n said:
If you want to have an argument about what happened at the Tavistock, it would be helpful if you read a book about what happened. Alternatively, there is the Cass Report or maybe the Bell Report.
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I just quoted the Cass Report a few posts back.

It might be helpful if you would read my posts before commenting on on them.
 
And remember, I came here to ask about the evidence that autism symptoms are mistaken for symptoms of GD.

It was you guys who threw to Tavistock because you couldn't come up with the evidence you claimed you had and because it turned the detransitioner I was asked to listen to was actually contradicting the claim of her parents being railroaded.

But, fair enough, I was happy to talk about this and have since been told that basic standards of evidence like avoiding 4th hand hearsay have no place in this discussion since it is not a court room.

I have been told by another that even to question a small part of the evidence makes me a trans cheerleader and the sort of person who doesn't care about children's suffering.

Never mind that I have two threads in this forum in which I call into question the very validity of the concept of gender identity or that I have stated the opinion that medical interventions are not the correct solution for gender dysphoria for more than 40 years now, probably a lot longer than most of you have even heard of the concept.

Never mind that I have said that it is reasonable to protect women's safe spaces or that I have said that the women in sport concern is valid.

Despite all of that, you insist that if I even question a small part of the evidence that puts me in the enemy's camp and means I don't care about children.

And you all seem to think there is nothing at all wrong with that attitude.

Given that, how am I supposed to think that you are even serious about any of that?
 
Matthew Best said:
I don't think you're very interested in a discussion, just an argument.

Hence this kind of thing.
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You can't seriously imagine that your sneery little comments that I was replying to could possibly amount to "argument" can you?

I think I am probably the only person here interested in discussion, given the replies I get.
 
Robin said:
And remember, I came here to ask about the evidence that autism symptoms are mistaken for symptoms of GD.
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And you still don't get it. The assertion was never that autism-specific symptoms were mistaken for symptoms of gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean there's no connection.

For example, a lot of autistic kids are gender nonconforming. By your own description, you were wildly non-gender conforming. But that's not considered a symptom OF autism, it just seems to correlate with it. But it is very much part of gender dysphoria. And it can contribute to autistic kids being misdiagnosed as gender dysphoric.

If you keep your blinkers on and only look at what's listed as symptoms of each condition in the DSM, yeah, it's going to look like there's no overlap. But the real world doesn't actually operate according to the DSM.

It was you guys who threw to Tavistock because you couldn't come up with the evidence you claimed you had and because it turned the detransitioner I was asked to listen to was actually contradicting the claim of her parents being railroaded.
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Tavistock is an example of how the world doesn't operate according to the rules you claim it does. I don't care what you conclude about the motives of the people involved, but there's really no dispute that they did not take the kind of care that they should have in making sure that patients were diagnosed properly and supported appropriately. Hell, the lack of any serious record keeping about outcomes is enough to prove that.

As to Chloe Cole, I'm going to go back to an earlier post you made about this, which you seem to think undermines her case:

Robin said:
Chloe Cole said:
The only person who didn’t affirm me was the first endocrinologist I met. He refused to put me on blockers and expressed concerns for my cognitive development. However, it was easy to see another endocrinologist to get a prescription for blockers and testosterone, just like getting a getting a second opinion for any other medical concern.

Text of her address at Louisana https://bioedge.org/gender/transgen...rty-blockers-at-13-a-double-mastectomy-at-15/
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So she first was seen by an endocrinologist who gave the correct advice and looked for other advice. Hardly being railroaded.

So, to me, her ordeal seems more to be the result of her parents not showing the proper diligence and America's broken health system rather than a problem with the concept of gender dysphoria and the treatments recommended for it.
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First off, no, she wasn't first seen by an endocrinologist who gave her the correct advice. Prior to the part you quoted, she said,

"After I came out to my parents as a transgender boy at 12, I consulted a pediatric therapist in July of 2017 and was diagnosed with dysphoria by a ‘gender specialist’ the following month."​

The pediatric therapist is the one who pushed her onto the medicalization path. The endocrinologist would only have been consulted after the decision to go that path was made. One endocrinologist didn't want to put her on hormone blockers because of concern for cognitive development, NOT because of any concern about a misdiagnosis, but she was already on the path of medicalization, and the endocrinologist wasn't in charge of her transition care. The pediatric therapist was. So this is hardly the win you seem to think it was. And getting a second opinion is hardly an extraordinary step, so the fact that she got a second opinion doesn't demonstrate that she was bypassing all the safety checks of the system and so the results are all her fault.

Second, no **** Sherlock regarding a broken health care system. That's kinda the point here, and it's not unique to the US. The medical establishment in many countries is failing to do its due diligence regarding trans care. But nobody here, including me, thinks that gender dysphoria doesn't exist, or that medical transition as a treatment is never appropriate. That's just more straw.
 
Ziggurat said:
And you still don't get it. are waiting for details of the claim The assertion was never that autism-specific symptoms were mistaken for symptoms of gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean there's no connection.
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But I have stipulated over and over again that yes they are linked.

Did you really not read any of the times I have said that,
?

Can you acknowledge now that I have said this?
For example, a lot of autistic kids are gender nonconforming. By your own description, you were wildly non-gender conforming. But that's not considered a symptom OF autism, it just seems to correlate with it. But it is very much part of gender dysphoria. And it can contribute to autistic kids being misdiagnosed as gender dysphoric.
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And I have been looking for a description of how this might happen, or even better, a case study of where it did happen.
If you keep your blinkers on sticking to facts and not speculating and only look at what's listed as symptoms of each condition in the DSM, yeah, it's going to look like there's no overlap. But the real world doesn't actually operate according to the DSM.
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As I have said many times mental health professionals that I have spoken to take DSM-5 with a grain of salt.

But in the other hand they can't just make it up as they go along. And if they do make it up as they go along, there's the problem right there.

But the diagnoses of myself and my children followed DSM-5 guidelines and my kids were diagnosed by the peak Autism Spectrum organisation. What else can they use?

I have looked for examples and cannot find any specific details of how autism plays a part in misdiagnosis.
 
Robin said:
Can you acknowledge now that I have said this?
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I never said you didn't. But you still don't seem to understand the significance of how being gender nonconforming might lead to a false diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

You have the pieces, yet you still can't fit them together.

As I have said many times mental health professionals that I have spoken to take DSM-5 with a grain of salt.

But in the other hand they can't just make it up as they go along. And if they do make it up as they go along, there's the problem right there.
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YES!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!!!!

There's a problem right here, because with some of this gender stuff, they are just making it up as they go along. Are you starting to get it yet?

But the diagnoses of myself and my children followed DSM-5 guidelines and my kids were diagnosed by the peak Autism Spectrum organisation. What else can they use?
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Again, my point isn't that you or your kids should use different criteria. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of your autism diagnosis.

I'm saying that for gender dysphoria, diagnoses are being made without the sort of rigor you might assume from reading the DSM descriptions. This isn't intended as a dig at the DSM, it's a statement that people aren't doing what they should be doing.
 
But that's not considered a symptom OF autism, it just seems to correlate with it. But it is very much part of gender dysphoria. And it can contribute to autistic kids being misdiagnosed as gender dysphoric.
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Well OK, decent point.

And, not to take away from the point but to clarify, all I was doing was doing stuff I liked and not doing stuff I didn't like. That seems stonkingly rational to me.

What is stonkingly irrational is society deciding there is something wrong with me doing that stuff on the irrelevant basis if my biological sex.
 
Robin said:
Well OK, decent point.

And, not to take away from the point but to clarify, all I was doing was doing stuff I liked and not doing stuff I didn't like. That seems stonkingly rational to me.

What is stonkingly irrational is society deciding there is something wrong with me doing that stuff on the irrelevant basis if my biological sex.
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I absolutely agree. There's nothing wrong with being gender nonconforming.

But there's an emerging assumption that being gender nonconforming indicates that you may be trans, and I think that's got a lot of potential to harm kids. Girls I think are particularly vulnerable on this front, because puberty is harder for them and they keep getting messages about how victimized women are. It's no wonder some of them start to think that becoming trans is a way to escape those problems.

My own daughter is a typical tomboy. Hates pink, hates to wear dresses, despises princesses. And when she was about 4, she once said she wanted to be a boy. But she's not transgender, and that was a one-off comment. Rather, like a typical 4 year old, she just had little concept of what being a boy or a girl really meant. She just knew she liked the more typically boys stuff, and that's as deep as it went. I never had any problem with her being a tomboy, I never tried to discourage it, but I also didn't encourage the idea that she was anything other than a girl, regardless of her interests. I told her that she's a tomboy, and that's just another kind of girl, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's totally normal. But had I drunk the Koolaid, she might be on the path to medicalization now. And that's just a horrific thought.
 
To me, the.most amazing part of Barnes' book I'd the example of where early GIDS, before it all started going wrong, gets it exactly right.

A young girl comes in with body image issues and concerns that the things she likes are "boy" things and the therapist goes through with questions like "But why shouldn't a girl like to do things like that?" and talking her through how her body will change and other things like that.

The therapist has made a correct distinction between gender non-conformity and dysphoria, so the girl can navigate her childhood and teenage years without feeling bad about her body.

I wish I had been able to talk to someone like that.
 
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The early days of GIDS had primary school children (mainly girls) on their books and put them on a pathway to puberty blockers.

Class actions are being organised right now, and the actions of GIDS will be considered alongside with the systemic doping of athletes in East Germany in the 1979s.

Some clinicians may well have been acting in good faith, but as Cass demonstrates beyond doubt, their clients were subject to experimental treatment and they were lied to about the reversibility of blockers. No amount of “but they started out okay” will excuse their actions.
 
Upchurch said:
As these go on, it sounds more and more like this podcast is as much a documentary as the Twitter Files were a transparent piece of journalism. But, I suppose the super wealthy producing their own propaganda never really went out of fashion.
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What does the podcast get wrong, in your view?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
I thought episodes 4 and 5 were excellent documentary podcasts, giving lots of background, featuring lots of interviews with people other than JKR, and especially in the latest episode, giving voice to numerous disappointed Potter fans and trans critics of JKR's tweets.

Most podcasts are one-on-one interviews in a 'talk radio' style, and this can be just as valid a format with a good interviewee as any other; there are certainly many important podcast series for this debate, especially Gender: A Wider Lens. Hannah Barnes doing the rounds to promote her book has been very instructive - she is able to distill the gist of the much longer read into an hour's interview, just as she and her team at BBC Newsnight could distill reporting into even shorter segments.

The JKR Witch Trials series is a step up from this format, and I really appreciated the inclusion of so much material other than hearing JKR explain herself. Which she does very clearly - she's not an idiot, and wrote a long essay explaining all of this already, so it should be no surprise that she's lucid and coherent in the podcasts. Not hysterical, transphobic or evil.
 
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