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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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d4m10n said:
What makes you think Bristow is lying about his own firsthand experiences at Tavistock?

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When did I say Sam Bristow was lying? Never. I never implied it either. What made you think that I did?f

This is about standards of evidence. When you get evidence in the form of "*Person A says Person B says some other person says some other person says..." then you are very far removed from the person who was actually the witness.

So person A and person B can be telling the truth and this can be wrong because the next person could be lying or stretching or mistaken in the chain.

People do like, bend the truth, misunderstand and so on so thr longer the hearsay chain the greater the chance of this happening.

Given that the claim implies a significant number of parents would be homophobic but perfectly OK with transgender people and surveys show that trans gender people are the least socially accepted group in society then this will need a stronger level of evidence.
 
Robin said:
This is about standards of evidence.
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I'm inclined to trust a BBC journalist when she relates concerns expressed by a doctor who practiced at Tavistock, especially since he expressed similar concerns on his Twitter account.

Robin said:
Given that the claim implies a significant number of parents would be homophobic but perfectly OK with transgender people...
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It's not a question of "perfectly OK" but rather which outcome they would prefer, given cultural constraints. Certainly some parents found it easier to go along with the preferred treatment pathway rather than speak up about the possibility of watchful waiting throughout puberty.
 
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d4m10n said:
I'm inclined to trust a BBC journalist when she relates concerns expressed by a doctor who practiced at Tavistock, especially since he expressed similar concerns on his Twitter account.



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As I said, it is not a case of Person A lying or person B lying.

When you get "Person A said that person B said that someone told him that someone told him ..." is not regarded as a good standard of evidence.

I am surprised that this is new to those here, but it is a very widely accepted standard. Most courts will not accept even second hand accounts for criminal matters except in very narrow circumstances.

This is an important matter and we should not arbitrarily drop widely accepted standards of evidence.
 
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If it were me I would want to know the details.

What steps did Bristow take to address this very serious matter?

Who did he inform and what was their response?

If the response was unsatisfactory, to whom did he escalate the matter?

Where did he document it?

These are all steps which a medical professional would take when notified of malpractice.
 
Robin, these matters have been dealt with in detail in this thread. Have you only recently heard of Tavistock, because some of your posts indicate so?
 
Matthew Best said:
A court's standards of evidence matter if you're in a court.
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Of course everyone must decide for yourself.

If third or fourth hand hearsay evidence is what you are prepared to accept then fine. I'm not stopping you.

I prefer an adequate standard of evidence.
 
lionking said:
Robin, these matters have been dealt with in detail in this thread. Have you only recently heard of Tavistock, because some of your posts indicate so?
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Of course I've heard of Tavistock. I have raised this very question a number of times before.

What possessed you to ask such a stupid question?
 
Robin said:
If it were me I would want to know the details.

What steps did Bristow take to address this very serious matter?

Who did he inform and what was their response?

If the response was unsatisfactory, to whom did he escalate the matter?

Where did he document it?

These are all steps which a medical professional would take when notified of malpractice.
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Have you read the book? What did it say about all this?
 
Matthew Best said:
Have you read the book? What did it say about all this?
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It doesn't (correct me if I am wrong).

There is another problem. A person tells you about institutional malpractice where they are working, you ask for details all the details I was talking about.
 
d4m10n said:
It wasn't just Dr. Bristow who complained of homophobia, of course.

https://www.google.com/books/editio...ust+as+critical"&pg=PT219&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/editio...+liberal+wokery"&pg=PT224&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/editio...+in+the+service"&pg=PT251&printsec=frontcover
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Again, to whom was it notified at the time? What was their response? If the response was inadequate, how was it escalated? What sort of notes/documentation was made of the incidents. All things a professional would do.

In the case of Spiliadis, if he was in the presence of a parent saying "Thank God my child is trans and not Gay or Lesbian" did he try to counsel them on such an outlandish attitude? As he himself says, if a parent had made a racialist remark it would not have gone unchallenged.

So tell me what steps were taken at the time. The book doesn't.
 
Again, more information is needed. This is being considered by the Cass Review and we only have the interim report so far, which says:

Cass Interim Report said:
The complex interaction between sexuality and gender identity, and societal responses to both; for example, we have heard from young lesbians who felt pressured to identify as transgender male, and conversely transgender males who felt pressured to come out as lesbian rather than transgender. We have also heard from adults who identified as transgender through childhood, and then reverted to their birth-registered gender in teen years.
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So why don't we hear about the transgender males who felt pressured to come out as lesbian rather than transgender?
 
Robin said:
So tell me what steps were taken at the time.
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Why? We were discussing whether there was a problem with homophobia in a specific clinical context. If you admit steps need to be taken, I'll just take the win.

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We also have the issue of a government organisation that has, allegedly, rampant homophobia in a country with very clear guidelines that can easily be found about how to deal with homophobia complaints.

Their should first be an attempt to address the issue on a personal level.

If that fails, a line manager or HR department may be notified.

If there is no resolution it can be escalated higher, or getting the aid of a professional body or an ombudsman.

And again each case would have to be documented.

I would be interested in the reasons that this did not succeed.
 
Matthew Best said:
So you have read it?

Or you haven't?

It's difficult to tell from what you've written here.
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But then you never were that good at inference.

Saying that the book does not detail it implies that, yes, I have read it.

Again, correct me if the formal steps taken to report and document medical malpractice and institutional homophobia are mentioned in the book and I have missed it.
 
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