Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Robin]

I'd like you to watch the video because it's informative, and it contains a lot of stuff that you're obviously not aware of.

Since I was only looking for information pertaining to autism, I don't see what else would be relevant.

For this case generally I think I will wait for the court case to play out. I like information stated clearly and concisely rather than packaged up with emotive decorations.

For example if it is true that the initial medical professional recommended against treatment and they shopped around for one who would provide it then I'm not sure she could claim to have been railroaded by the medical community. Parents maybe.

And did she really get diagnosed with ADHD at age 11 without at the same time being tested for autism when the two conditions are so closely linked?

We need full facts on this not a Jordan Peterson spin job.

The symptoms aren't specific to autism. But symptoms that kids can have which can be mistaken for being part of gender dysphoria include difficulty socializing with kids of the same sex, sexually atypical interests, and sometimes homosexual attraction. Only the first of those is directly connected to autism, but autistic kids can still have sexually atypical interests and experience homosexual attraction.

And neurotypical kids also have sexually atypical interests and same sex attraction.

I have never heard of either of those as being symptoms of autism. Neither of them could even be classed as a symptom. And same sex attraction is not in indicator for GD.

So we are left with "difficulty socialising with kids of the same sex". But autistic kids have difficulty socialising with everyone not just kids of the same sex.

So out of all that there is still no symptom of autism that has been mistaken for a symptom of GD.

 

[Ziggurat]

Since I was only looking for information pertaining to autism, I don't see what else would be relevant.

She is an example of what you suggest isn't happening.

For this case generally I think I will wait for the court case to play out.

That's stupid. You don't need the court case to play out in order to know that she didn't get the treatment she should have received. You don't need to decide the question of legal culpability in order to recognize that she should never have had hormone treatments and a double mastectomy. You don't need a court to understand that she was sold a false bill of goods, that the struggles she faced that people told her were because she was actually a he weren't actually caused by that.

For example if it is true that the initial medical professional recommended against treatment and they shopped around for one who would provide it then I'm not sure she could claim to have been railroaded by the medical community.

That's not what happened.

And neurotypical kids also have sexually atypical interests and same sex attraction.

Yes they do. And some of them are also being pushed to transition rather than accept their homosexuality.

So we are left with "difficulty socialising with kids of the same sex". But autistic kids have difficulty socialising with everyone not just kids of the same sex.

Sure. But kids expect to socialize better with kids of the same sex even if they have difficulty, and that's not always the case with autistic kids. Sometimes they socialize better with kids of the opposite sex. For girls, it's because the rules of behavior for girls are more complex. For boys, it's because socializing with other boys requires more aggression. But boys give girls more slack on their rules and girls give boys more slack on theirs, so it's not uncommon (though not universal, I'm not making that claim) for autistic kids to find it easier to socialize with the opposite sex. In the current climate, that can easily be mistaken for gender dysphoria, even though it's not.

But at the end of the day, you don't need to believe me. Just look at the actual standards that are being used to screen (or really, NOT screen) kids for medical intervention, the lack of any data on the efficacy or safety of these treatments, and the claims being made about its efficacy and safety which aren't actually backed up. Then try to tell me with a straight face that they're doing their due diligence. Seriously, read up on what happened at Tavistock. It's not actually an outlier, it's the norm.

 

[Robin]

She is an example of what you suggest isn't happening.

No it isn't. There is nothing in this story that I said wasn't happening. Specifically I said there isn't any evidence of symptoms of autism being mistaken for symptoms of GD.

There are no examples in this story of symptoms of autism being mistaken for symptoms of GD

For this case generally I think I will wait for the court case to play out.

That's stupid.

Sure, let's just get all our information from Glenn Beck, Tucker Carlson , Jordan Peterson, they never spread misinformation. Who needs the full story?

That's not what happened.

Let's find out.

 

[Ziggurat]

No it isn't. There is nothing in this story that I said wasn't happening.

Sure there is. Have you forgotten?

Any autistic kids who don't fit in know exactly why they don't fit in.

That's simply not true. Some autistic kids might know, but some don't.

 

[Robin]

Sure there is. Have you forgotten?

Can't forget what isn't there.

Same sex attraction is not a symptom of autism. Sexually atypical interests is not a symptom of autism. Neither of these are a symptom at all.

The social disconnects of autism are not to a specific sex.

So, what symptom of autism was mistaken for a symptom of GD?

Can you tell me???? Or did you forget?

 

[Robin]

So far, the people disagreeing with me have asserted, among other things, that children can't understand themselves, children are idiots and that getting all the facts before making my mind up is "stupid".

Why doe anyone think I would be convinced by that?

 

[Robin]

The DSM-5-TR criteria for a gender dysphoria diagnosis are set out here. None of these is a symptom of autism:

The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
As with the diagnostic criteria for adolescents and adults, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

 

[Robin]

For an adolescent, similarly they are not symptoms of autism:

The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least two of the following:

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In order to meet criteria for the diagnosis, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

 

[Ziggurat]

Can't forget what isn't there.

You said autistic kids who don't fit in all know why they don't fit in. That is there. And it's wrong.

So far, the people disagreeing with me have asserted, among other things, that children can't understand themselves

That's not what I said. I said that in general, they don't understand themselves. And that is true. Most adults don't really understand themselves either.

children are idiots

Most of them are. So are a lot of adults.

and that getting all the facts before making my mind up is "stupid".

I never said that either. But it is stupid to not make even provisional judgments when enough facts emerge. The distinction is important.

 

[Robin]

You said autistic kids who don't fit in all know why they don't fit in. That is there. And it's wrong.

Obviously I meant autistic kids that were diagnosed and treated. In context I was saying that there should be fewer misdiagnoses and fewer children who would not know the reasons for their social disconnect.

Most of them are. So are a lot of adults.

As I said, am I supposed to find claims like that convincing?

That's not what I said. I said that in general, they don't understand themselves. And that is true. Most adults don't really understand themselves either.

You were disagreeing with my contention that autistic kids who have been treated understand their own condition. Except in a small minority of cases they do.

 

[Robin]

I never said that either.

Here:

For this case generally I think I will wait for the court case to play out.

That's stupid.

But it is stupid to not make even provisional judgments when enough facts emerge. The distinction is important.

And by "enough" facts you meant facts as filtered through Jordan Peterson, Tucker Carlson, Glenn Beck.

That may be enough for you. Not me. I prefer the full facts.

 

[Brainster]

Interesting and illuminating press article:

https://novaramedia.com/2023/02/20/...nti-trans-hate-skyrocketed-156-in-four-years/

Check this out:

Britain’s most-read newspaper, the Daily Mail, has certainly dramatically increased its coverage over the past few years. Comparing the first month of each year shows a rise from six articles in January 2013 to a jaw-dropping 115 articles in January 2023 (+1817%).

See the problem is too much coverage of this group (a similar complaint was raised about the NY Times supposedly devoting 15,000 words to the topic on its front page). Which is leading to increased hate crimes against the transgendered. And who is committing those hate crimes?

One survey in 2022 showed that two-thirds of Brits simply don’t pay any attention to trans issues, with only 35% actually showing any interest. Those who show more interest in trans issues are far more likely to hold favourable views of trans people. Meanwhile, those who pay no attention more often hold negative views.

People who pay no attention to trans issues. So why the griping about all the coverage?

 

[Lithrael]

Interesting, hadn’t seen the criteria laid out before. As a committed tomboy and probably mildly autistic kid, posters often imply someone like me might have been pressured into a GD diagnosis had I grown up these days. But it looks like I checked half of what you need for a childhood diagnosis and zero of what you need for an adolescent diagnosis.

I very distinctly recall being annoyed by gender rules and roles full stop and in elementary school, if a fellow kid asked if I was a boy or a girl I’d answer I’m a banana. Which I thought was devastatingly clever.

I do see a little wisdom in recognizing that little kids are often a little more forgiving with cross gender playmates than same gender playmates, because as soon as they pick up how their own gender cohort is supposed to act they will chafe at one who doesn’t bother to conform.

Still, it might have more to do with girls being socialized to be less interested in holding frogs. Which seems to vary a lot more these days. There’s enough rep in kids’ shows these days for kids enjoying fun kids stuff without having to be the right gender for it. In the 80’s we had to have preachy boys’ cartoon PSA’s about letting the Girl play sports with you because it WASN’T an organically well represented idea. A lot of parents still reflexively overenforce Gender Appropriate Interests on their kids, but…. If the 80’s were now, the boys would be wearing more jelly bracelets and the girls would be holding more reptiles and amphibians.

As Robin points out, dysphoria is something else.

 

[Ziggurat]

And by "enough" facts you meant facts as filtered through Jordan Peterson, Tucker Carlson, Glenn Beck.

That may be enough for you. Not me. I prefer the full facts.

You have a really bad habit of appealing to authority to support your own case, and now ad hominems on other sources to dismiss them. Two sides of the same coin. Aside from the general problem of not arguing a case on its actual merits (which is a major problem, make no mistake), there are some additional ones specific to this post.

First, Carlson and Beck aren't relevant. I don't pay attention to them, I have never mentioned them. You're just trying to do guilt by association, but it doesn't even make sense because there is no association.

Second, I've noticed that most people who dismiss Peterson out of hand don't actually pay attention to what he actually says, but base that dismissal on second or third hand characterizations of him they get from others. I think you fit the pattern.

Third, I didn't link to Peterson's video because of what he said (though I will again note you haven't actually objected to anything he did say), but because of what Chloe Cole said. I suspect you still haven't watched it, have you? I can't make you. You don't have any actual obligation to. But if you don't, I can't take any criticism of it seriously.

Lastly, I get my information from a lot of sources. That includes journal articles. One of the ironies here is that even though you're accusing me of viewing things through filtered sources, you previously said that certain information should only be accessed through a filter and not directly, because apparently you think people need credentials to read journal articles and understand them.

You aren't taking this discussion seriously. I no longer have any reason to take you seriously.

 

[Robin]

You aren't taking this discussion seriously. I no longer have any reason to take you seriously.

Are you pretending you ever took this discussion seriously? Really?

You are pretending that a consultation of a number of independent experts who have a professional obligation and qualifications to review the literature on a.tegular basis is somehow "appeal to authority".

Then you are pretending that figures like Glenn Beck, Carlson Ticket, Jordan Peterson are suppliers of reliable information which can be trusted without double checking from other sources.

I give you the credit that you don't believe that nonsense.

 

[Robin]

.I suspect you still haven't watched it, have you? I can't make you.

Better I have read the transcript. It does not say what you say it says. It never once mentions a symptom of autism which might be mistaken for a symptom of GD. Not once. Just some general stuff about autism.

And you haven't been able to identify any symptoms of autism that might be mistaken for a symptom of GD.

And now you are blustering, blustering, blustering to cover your tracks.

Why don't you just admit that you don't know if any symptoms of autism that might be mistaken for symptoms of GD.

 

[Robin]

And more fool me for once again bring tricked into watching a long video because someone talking nonsense cynically lied about the contents of it.

 

[Robin]

Interesting, hadn’t seen the criteria laid out before. As a committed tomboy and probably mildly autistic kid, posters often imply someone like me might have been pressured into a GD diagnosis had I grown up these days. But it looks like I checked half of what you need for a childhood diagnosis and zero of what you need for an adolescent diagnosis.

I very distinctly recall being annoyed by gender rules and roles full stop and in elementary school, if a fellow kid asked if I was a boy or a girl I’d answer I’m a banana. Which I thought was devastatingly clever.

I do see a little wisdom in recognizing that little kids are often a little more forgiving with cross gender playmates than same gender playmates, because as soon as they pick up how their own gender cohort is supposed to act they will chafe at one who doesn’t bother to conform.

Still, it might have more to do with girls being socialized to be less interested in holding frogs. Which seems to vary a lot more these days. There’s enough rep in kids’ shows these days for kids enjoying fun kids stuff without having to be the right gender for it. In the 80’s we had to have preachy boys’ cartoon PSA’s about letting the Girl play sports with you because it WASN’T an organically well represented idea. A lot of parents still reflexively overenforce Gender Appropriate Interests on their kids, but…. If the 80’s were now, the boys would be wearing more jelly bracelets and the girls would be holding more reptiles and amphibians.

As Robin points out, dysphoria is something else.

Same here, I'm autistic (Undiagnosed until adulthood) and a committed sissy who played with dolls and doll houses, took ballet lessons and loved to read Anne of Green Gables, Black Beauty, Little Women etc and dress up as a girl.

I had all the difficulties socially connecting that all autistic people have.

I can't imagine what grounds any medical professional would have had to conclude that I was suffering gender dysphoria.

 

[Robin]

The Chloe Cole story is another issue. As I say, best to wait for the full story but as an example of how the facts can be stretched:

For example if it is true that the initial medical professional recommended against treatment and they shopped around for one who would provide it then I'm not sure she could claim to have been railroaded by the medical community.

That's not what happened.

The only person who didn’t affirm me was the first endocrinologist I met. He refused to put me on blockers and expressed concerns for my cognitive development. However, it was easy to see another endocrinologist to get a prescription for blockers and testosterone, just like getting a getting a second opinion for any other medical concern.

Text of her address at Louisana https://bioedge.org/gender/transgen...rty-blockers-at-13-a-double-mastectomy-at-15/

So she first was seen by an endocrinologist who gave the correct advice and looked for other advice. Hardly being railroaded.

So, to me, her ordeal seems more to be the result of her parents not showing the proper diligence and America's broken health system rather than a problem with the concept of gender dysphoria and the treatments recommended for it.

 

[Ziggurat]

Same here, I'm autistic (Undiagnosed until adulthood) and a committed sissy who played with dolls and doll houses, took ballet lessons and loved to read Anne of Green Gables, Black Beauty, Little Women etc and dress up as a girl.

I had all the difficulties socially connecting that all autistic people have.

I can't imagine what grounds any medical professional would have had to conclude that I was suffering gender dysphoria.

Then you haven’t been paying attention, because those are exactly the grounds on which some medical professionals ARE making that diagnosis. They shouldn’t, but they are.

I don’t know why you have such faith in professionals who have time and time again shown that it isn’t deserved.