Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[Ziggurat]

I am on the spectrum, all three of my kids are on the spectrum. Through support groups I speak to many on the spectrum and I work closely with the professionals who manage my kids interventions.

Good for you. But you're a fool if you think everyone on the spectrum is similarly supported. They aren't.

They wouldn't do this and it wouldn't work if children lacked the ability to understand their condition.

But they don't, not without external guidance. If they could understand themselves on their own, there would be no need for all that external support. But again, that's not universal. Many kids on the spectrum have little to no professional intervention.

But it will surprise you to learn that it turns out that children are not complete ******* idiots as you appear to suppose.

It isn't a matter of intelligence.

 

[Robin]

Thats two people here that think that kids are complete ******* idiots.

What say the rest of you?

Silly me, I thought a major part of parenting was to help our children understand themselves and the world around them.

 

[Robin]

My kids are nothing out of the ordinary but, for example, one of them at nine years of age researched for himself how to do green screen effects, downloaded the plugin, booked time in the school's green screen studio, wrote a script, recorded a video and put the whole videos together himself without any adult help.

And that is just how nine year olds roll these days.

At the same time they were learning about how their own brains differed from other people's and how to learn to produce the kinds of signals that most people produce unconsciously.

That is pretty much how autism intervention works.

If people here are thinking that children cannot understand themselves or that they are idiots then I don't wonder that they have so much trouble understanding autism

 

[porch]

But if you've read John Elder Robison's Look Me on the Eye, he challenged the idea that it is the job of people on the Spectrum to mimic the social cues of neurotyps but rather to explain our condition and help them relate to us.

That sounds like something I can get behind. Seems like all the more reason to NOT suggest to kids on the spectrum that they ought to conform to any gender identity.

 

[Robin]

That sounds like something I can get behind. Seems like all the more reason to NOT suggest to kids on the spectrum that they ought to conform to any gender identity.

Yes, that's my takeaway from it too.

 

[LondonJohn]

As an aside, this whole conversation very forcibly reminds me of my Boomer mother who absolutely hates tattoos. She can't understand why anyone would intentionally scar themselves permanently. She views it as self-harm similar to cutting and the sign of a mental problem.

Yes, and shame on the tattoo artists who mutilate and disfigure those poor people in an irreversible manner.

Shame also on the surgeons who mutilate the bodies of perfectly healthy women - slicing them open in order to insert wholly-unnecessary silicone bags inside their breasts.

How on Earth are we, as a society, allowing this to happen? Surely it's medically indefensible to mutilate and maim people with perfectly healthy bodies??? Surely the clinicians doing all this mutilation should either be heavily censured, or struck off by the relevant regulatory body, or charged with criminal offences.


(To explain (sadly): this post is in ironic reference to the supposition that trans-affirming surgical intervention is somehow improper on the basis of it being performed on people with perfectly healthy bodies)

 

[Robin]

Good for you. But you're a fool if you think everyone on the spectrum is similarly supported. They aren't.

And obviously you're a fool if you think I said that.

But they don't, not without external guidance. If they could understand themselves on their own, there would be no need for all that external support.

Which again obviously doesn't affect argument because I never said they could do it on their own.

What did you think "intervention" meant when I said it?

Once they have been taught the skills, they definitely can do it on their own.

But again, that's not universal. Many kids on the spectrum have little to no professional intervention.

That doesn't change what I said. More do than ever before.

It isn't a matter of intelligence.

Yes it is. In order to understand anything we use intelligence.

 

[Robin]

Where I live there are at least 5 places within a short drive that offer good services for those with autism spectrum conditions, many more within a slightly longer drive (up to an hour) and an organisation that provides home and school visits.

It is.s much longer drive and there is much less choice to find somewhere that will treat gender conditions and most GOs will not provide a referral to them.

That's Sydney Australia, but I m finding it difficult to believe that there are.parts of America where there is little or no access to autism spectrum services but plenty of choice for gender care.

 

[Ziggurat]

If people here are thinking that children cannot understand themselves or that they are idiots then I don't wonder that they have so much trouble understanding autism

The problem isn't that I don't understand autism, it's that you don't understand what the trans activists are telling kids, or what it's like for kids who are confused. Your kids aren't. That's great. I'm sure you're doing a good job as a parent. But a lots of kids aren't doing well, and they are being led astray. Autistic kids are more vulnerable because they have a harder time fitting in, but they aren't unique in that respect. Any kid having a harder time fitting in is more vulnerable. You seem to think I attacking autism, but I'm not. I'm attacking activists who push solutions on kids when they don't even understand the kids problems.

 

[Samson]

Yes, and shame on the tattoo artists who mutilate and disfigure those poor people in an irreversible manner.

Shame also on the surgeons who mutilate the bodies of perfectly healthy women - slicing them open in order to insert wholly-unnecessary silicone bags inside their breasts.

How on Earth are we, as a society, allowing this to happen? Surely it's medically indefensible to mutilate and maim people with perfectly healthy bodies??? Surely the clinicians doing all this mutilation should either be heavily censured, or struck off by the relevant regulatory body, or charged with criminal offences.


(To explain (sadly): this post is in ironic reference to the supposition that trans-affirming surgical intervention is somehow improper on the basis of it being performed on people with perfectly healthy bodies)

Some prohibitions help everyone and harm no one.
Worth considering.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, and shame on the tattoo artists who mutilate and disfigure those poor people in an irreversible manner.

Shame also on the surgeons who mutilate the bodies of perfectly healthy women - slicing them open in order to insert wholly-unnecessary silicone bags inside their breasts.

How on Earth are we, as a society, allowing this to happen?

For minors, we as a society don't allow that to happen. That applies to boh tattoos and breast enlargement. We also don't require insurance to cover the cost of either.

Surely it's medically indefensible to mutilate and maim people with perfectly healthy bodies???

Tattoos don't impair normal biological functions. They aren't comparable.

 

[Robin]

The problem isn't that I don't understand autism, it's that you don't understand what the trans activists are telling kids, or what it's like for kids who are confused. Your kids aren't. That's great. I'm sure you're doing a good job as a parent. But a lots of kids aren't doing well, and they are being led astray. Autistic kids are more vulnerable because they have a harder time fitting in, but they aren't unique in that respect. Any kid having a harder time fitting in is more vulnerable. You seem to think I attacking autism, but I'm not. I'm attacking activists who push solutions on kids when they don't even understand the kids problems.

I think the bolded part shows that you still aren't understanding. Any autistic kids who don't fit in know exactly why they don't fit in. Neurotypical kids who don't fit in have no idea why they don't fit in. Autistic kids are far less likely to be buying any pup's.

 

[lionking]

I think the bolded part shows that you still aren't understanding. Any autistic kids who don't fit in know exactly why they don't fit in. Neurotypical kids who don't fit in have no idea why they don't fit in. Autistic kids are far less likely to be buying any pup's.

Wow. Pronouncements with such authority. Any evidence apart from your anecdotes?

 

[Aber]

Yes, and shame on the tattoo artists who mutilate and disfigure those poor people in an irreversible manner.

Age limit for tattoos is 18.

(To explain (sadly): this post is in ironic reference to the supposition that trans-affirming surgical intervention is somehow improper on the basis of it being performed on people with perfectly healthy bodies)

Strawman - the major concern is surgery on minors.

Any comments on the Norwegian health authorities recent statement?

 

[Robin]

I think the problem is that many people think of autistic kids as poor little victims, helpless and needing a firm hand.

The point is that this is nonsense. Autistic kids are no more vulnerable than any other kids. That is not to say they are not vulnerable. Just that they are no more vulnerable than neurotypical kids and in many respects less vulnerable.

 

[Robin]

Wow. Pronouncements with such authority. Any evidence apart from your anecdotes?

As far as the data goes I trust the psychologists who we consult. I doubt that anyone here is qualified to go straight to the journals.

All of us must process scientific research through people qualified to examine it. If you are reading passages taken out of individual papers you are doing it wrong.

None of us here are capable of taking an overview o the data, know what has been replicated and what hasn't.

I have consulted a number of psychologists including one regarded as a leading figure on autism and related conditions.

But this has taken me years and consulting a variety of specialists, what exactly is it that you want me to lay before you that you can quickly digest?

 

[Ziggurat]

I think the bolded part shows that you still aren't understanding. Any autistic kids who don't fit in know exactly why they don't fit in.

You haven't actually listened to any detransitioners who are on the spectrum, have you? What you describe simply isn't universal.

 

[Ziggurat]

As far as the data goes I trust the psychologists who we consult. I doubt that anyone here is qualified to go straight to the journals.

Why on earth not?

 

[Robin]

You haven't actually listened to any detransitioners who are on the spectrum, have you? What you describe simply isn't universal.

What I describe is what is described to me by various psy hologists who keep abreast of the literature as a whole, know what is replicated and what isn't. People who are trained to interpret the results.

That is far more universal than listening to stories of individual detransitioners.

 

[Ziggurat]

What I describe is what is described to me by various psy hologists who keep abreast of the literature as a whole, know what is replicated and what isn't. People who are trained to interpret the results.

That is far more universal than listening to stories of individual detransitioners.

No, it isn't. There has been almost no research into detransitioners. Your faith in "experts" to the point where you won't even examine literature yourself isn't science, it's scientism.