Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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I don't think anyone here is arguing that transgender people should not be given the rights and protections they deserve.
Ah, but the devil is in the details, isn't it?


It's just a question of finding the best way to do that whilst also safeguarding the rights of others. By which I don't just mean the rights of ciswomen, but also the right of temporarily confused young people to not be encouraged to have irreversible surgery they may one day come to bitterly regret.
I might believe that if it weren't the case that the only solution being considered was to deny any gender affirming care to any trans youth, including allowing elementary kids use the bathroom they are most comfortable with.
 
Ah, but the devil is in the details, isn't it?


Quite so.

And on top of that - and as I've pointed out probably over a dozen times before in this thread - many of the more....vociferous....posters here have not simply been taking a position which merely discusses/debates issues around proportionality etc when it comes to the likes of cis women and minors. No: many of those posters have been engaging in flat-out denialism when it comes to the very issue of transgender identity. To pretend that this isn't the case is as risible as it is incorrect.


I might believe that if it weren't the case that the only solution being considered was to deny any gender affirming care to any trans youth, including allowing elementary kids use the bathroom they are most comfortable with.


Exactly. As I've also pointed out several times in this thread, there are many, many transgender minors for whom timely intervention - whether through counselling/psychotherapy, medication or (after a certain age) surgery - has resulted in an entirely happy and therapeutic outcome, and a fulfilled life as a transgender person. Yes, there absolutely are some who have ended up regretting these sorts of interventions (which of course are the only ones that those with anti-transgender-identity views shout about...). But as the evidence base grows regarding medium- and longer-term outcomes, the medical profession should be able to calibrate its approach to transgender minors in order to minimise the mistakes and maximise the successes.
 
Furthermore, there are plenty of people with transgender identity who do not experience gender dysphoria. You seem to misunderstand this - and you also appear to misunderstand the fact that for someone presenting with transgender identity but without gender dysphoria, mainstream medicine will often consider it appropriate and therapeutic to intervene medically or surgically to affirm that person's transgender identity. In other words, the presence of gender dysphoria is not a necessary precursor to giving a transgender person medical or surgical treatments to aid their transition.

You seem to have overlooked this earlier post:

only those with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria are eligible for the various interventions on the NHS pathway of care.
 
Furthermore, there are plenty of people with transgender identity who do not experience gender dysphoria.

That may be, but your conception of what gender dysphoria is is completely wrong, so your idea of what transgender identity without it means is wrong as well.

You seem to misunderstand this - and you also appear to misunderstand the fact that for someone presenting with transgender identity but without gender dysphoria, mainstream medicine will often consider it appropriate and therapeutic to intervene medically or surgically to affirm that person's transgender identity.

No, they don't. This is your own fantasy. Your own sources make no such claim. And why would they? It's deeply unethical. Why inflict risk and harm of surgery on someone who isn't experiencing distress? It's not justified.

In other words, the presence of gender dysphoria is not a necessary precursor to giving a transgender person medical or surgical treatments to aid their transition.

It damn well better be, or your surgery is completely unnecessary.

I was somewhat surprised to read your strident statements of fact on this issue... when your statements of fact were, in fact, incorrect. And I address them in this post in the hope of promoting well-informed debate.

I was somewhat surprised to see you make claims that your sources never supported.

Oh, who am I kidding. Of course I wasn't surprised.
 
I'm not sure if you misread the post you were replying to, but the issue is with some US clinics offering *medical* transition without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, something which is definitely not the mainstream medical position in the UK. If you think the first position is "correct", then you must disagree with the approach taken by mainstream medicine in the UK.
It's worth pausing here to ask whether the US or the UK is getting this right. I'd go with the UK, because it makes a lot of sense to limit (risky and often irreversible) medical treatment to those with genuine medical diagnoses.

:uk:

ETA: Also b/c the U.S. has overly permissive regimes in some places and total bans in others. :boxedin:

ETA2: What other nations should we be looking at?
 
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Indeed.

Plus, "cosmetic" automatically implies discretionary and somewhat superficial*... whereas in the case of transgender identity, medically-appropriate surgical (or medical, for that matter) intervention is not viewed as discretionary - it's viewed as necessary and therapeutic in nature.

And maybe it's worth reiterating (again) that transgender identity is nowadays considered a valid condition by the entirety of mainstream medicine** - which is precisely why treatments/therapies to affirm transgender identity (provided they are agreed by both the transgender person and the clinicians treating them) are considered medically-suitable, necessary, and restorative in terms of the overall health of the person concerned.


* And I mean "superficial" in the emotion/consciousness sense, rather than the physical sense (some cosmetic surgery procedures are pretty brutal and short-term injurious in the physical sense).

** As opposed to a mental health disorder.

I’m a lurker on this thread and I intend to stay that way, but there is one thing I need to ask you. Please stop describing transgender identity as a “valid condition … as opposed to a mental disorder”. I am lucky enough not to have any mental health disorders that I know of but I know and love some people with mental disorders and I think they would be quite upset if I told them their condition was not valid, which is what your phrasing implies.

Please find some other way to express that particular point.
 
I expect the Equality Act petition might see a boost in sign-ups today.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1633401094414925825



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Now the government has given a response I'm not sure what people are hoping to gain from the petition? We know it is only legal judgements that will clarify and cement the meaning of wording in any legislation, so even if the government altered the wording until such time as the amended act ended up in a court judgement we still would not have certainty that any new wording achieves something different.
 
Now the government has given a response I'm not sure what people are hoping to gain from the petition?

An amendment to the Equality Act:

(X) In this Act, references to female persons and women:
(a) also refer to a person who was born female and has acquired the male sex under the GRA 2004
(b) do not refer to a person who was born male and has acquired the female sex under that Act.

(X) In this Act, references to male persons and men:
(a) also refer to a person who was born male and has acquired the female sex under the GRA 2004
(b) do not refer to a person who was born female and has acquired the male sex under that Act
 
I expect the Equality Act petition might see a boost in sign-ups today.

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1633401094414925825

Heh, I suggested to Rolfe months ago that the petition would be significantly boosted when JKR tweeted about it. Choosing International Women's Day was a great idea.

Looks like it's added about 6,000 today so far, it's currently at 92,342 signatures and has been adding 600-900 per hour. Even if it doesn't cross 100K today, the petition getting so close to the threshold will likely help it over the finish line in the next few days/weeks.
 
An amendment to the Equality Act:

But surely no one is naive enough to think that the government will meddle with such an important piece of legislation based on a petition of an arbitrary 100,000? The petition has forced the government to make it clear how it views the equality act so I think it's already been much more successful than any other petition I can recall in recent years.

And again even if the amendment was made it would still require court decisions to be certain it achieves what the proposers want it to achieve.

We need court cases that require judges to set precedents, then we can know if the wording needs changing. My own view is given the government's response to this petition and the guidance from the Equality bods when a new case goes to court the judges will take note of that and a change of sex even with a GRC will not override the right to single sex segregation based on biological/natal sex in certain circumstances.
 
But surely no one is naive enough to think that the government will meddle with such an important piece of legislation based on a petition of an arbitrary 100,000? The petition has forced the government to make it clear how it views the equality act so I think it's already been much more successful than any other petition I can recall in recent years.

And again even if the amendment was made it would still require court decisions to be certain it achieves what the proposers want it to achieve.

We need court cases that require judges to set precedents, then we can know if the wording needs changing. My own view is given the government's response to this petition and the guidance from the Equality bods when a new case goes to court the judges will take note of that and a change of sex even with a GRC will not override the right to single sex segregation based on biological/natal sex in certain circumstances.

I view the petition as just one piece of the jigsaw.

In the time it's been running, there's been the veto on the Scottish GRR bill, then the controversy over trans women rapists in women's prisons, followed by new guidance from the government excluding trans women convicted of violent offences from prisons in England and Wales. There have been several exchanges in Parliament, following the veto of the Scottish GRR bill. Several more major organisations including some universities have left the Stonewall Champions scheme.

Current practice in how the EA is *applied* and how this relates to other statutory issues such as relationships education continues to cause unrest and controversy. The government has made noises about some of this, so likely more guidance will follow for schools, etc.

Forcing another debate in Parliament if the petition crosses 100K might not achieve much, since they can end up being debated by two men and a dog in the middle of the night, but along with opinion polling, a successful (100K-threshold-passing) petition puts politicians on notice that people do care about an issue. Opinion polling is substantially against substituting gender identity for sex in many areas of life, certainly in where trans prisoners should be housed. This is backed up by the practical experiences of implementing more inclusive policies, so the prisons service in England and Wales had substantially withdrawn from uncritical affirmation, with declining numbers of trans women housed in women's prisons. That in turn makes it less likely that future convicts will resort to Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria if they know it's not going to work - if violent offenders are *never* housed with women prisoners, a boundary has been drawn, and those who thrill from transgressing boundaries can't get their kicks.

The interpretation of the EA put about by trans allies tends to erase sex and replace it with gender, and this has spread through many public services: the NHS, schools, police forces. The EA as written and as interpreted by many lawyers does not permit such a coach-and-horses approach. That can be addressed in a few ways: in actual court cases when the application of the EA is challenged and tested (in either direction), and by guidance, both to courts as well as to public services.

The open letter this week signed by over 1000 NHS doctors and nurses asking the NHS to stop erasing women from its language and advertising might end up being more effective than a generalised petition, since if experts disagree with official language this should indeed weigh more. But a broader petition reinforces such efforts, as does opinion polling and media coverage.
 
I’m a lurker on this thread and I intend to stay that way, but there is one thing I need to ask you. Please stop describing transgender identity as a “valid condition … as opposed to a mental disorder”. I am lucky enough not to have any mental health disorders that I know of but I know and love some people with mental disorders and I think they would be quite upset if I told them their condition was not valid, which is what your phrasing implies.

Please find some other way to express that particular point.


I understand what you're saying, and why you're saying it. But "valid" is a term which is in common currency, when it comes to describing both transgender identity and other conditions (such as homosexuality).

I suppose a synonym for "valid" might be "normal" or "healthy". If you remember, for example, homosexuality was considered in mainstream medicine to be a mental health disorder, up until the 1970s - at which time mainstream medicine removed homosexuality's categorisation as a mental health disorder. From then on, homosexuality was considered by mainstream medicine to be a valid (or normal, or healthy) condition. In other words, we do not nowadays consider homosexual people to be mentally ill or in need of "curative" treatment.

And exactly the same thing has happened to transgender identity, when it comes to the way in which it's categorised by mainstream medicine: it used to be considered a mental health disorder, but that has changed and nowadays it's considered to be a valid (or normal, or healthy) condition*. Mainstream medicine does not nowadays consider transgender people to be mentally ill or in need of "curative" treatment. Though, just as with homosexuality, it takes time for certain sections of the public to come to terms with the way mainstream medicine categorises transgender identity (and this very thread is obviously indicative of that problem....).

As I've written several times in this thread, I (and others) use the term "valid" as a broad synonym for "not considered to be a mental health disorder or deviancy". I can only apologise that the word doesn't sit right with you though.


* It should also be noted that some who are unfamiliar with the subject - including some who participate in this thread - conflate gender dysphoria with transgender identity. Gender dysphoria, which IS still (rightly) considered to be a mental health disorder, is a transgender person's internal struggle/conflict between the gender which matches their sex assigned at birth, and their trans gender. As I've previously pointed out, it might be considered analogous in many ways to the internal struggle that some (even many) homosexual people encounter with "coming out" as gay. But their underlying condition - whether that's homosexuality or transgender identity - is not a mental health disorder in itself.
 
I understand what you're saying, and why you're saying it. But "valid" is a term which is in common currency, when it comes to describing both transgender identity and other conditions (such as homosexuality).

I suppose a synonym for "valid" might be "normal" or "healthy".

Healthy people don't need surgery to treat their healthy lived condition.

In other words, we do not nowadays consider homosexual people to be mentally ill or in need of "curative" treatment.

True. Homosexuals don't need treatment at all.

But the same can't be said for transexuals who need surgery, can it? It's not a "cure" in the sense that it makes them not trans, but it is a cure in the sense that it relieves distress. Surgery is for people who have distress that needs relief, ie, gender dysphoria. It isn't for people who have no distress and therefore need no relief. This is part of your fundamental misunderstanding of what gender dysphoria even is.
 
Healthy people don't need surgery to treat their healthy lived condition.


You do realise that the mainstream medical community knows and understands this whole area hugely better than you could ever hope to do, right?

By the way, and with your above statement in mind, what do you think about the circumcision of baby males?
 
You do realise that the mainstream medical community knows and understands this whole area hugely better than you could ever hope to do, right?

That may be true. But you have been consistently wrong about what their opinion is.

By the way, and with your above statement in mind, what do you think about the circumcision of baby males?

I think it's off topic.
 
That may be true. But you have been consistently wrong about what their opinion is.


Well... all over the world, transgender people (with and without gender dysphoria) are having surgery to affirm their transgender identity, and have been doing so for many years now. So perhaps you'll enlighten me on how you're correct wrt the mainstream medicine knowledge & understanding on this issue, and how I'm "wrong about what their opinion is"? I await your response with interest.



I think it's off topic.


I think it's perfectly on-topic, since you're obviously making the broad contention that surgery isn't (or shouldn't be) performed on healthy people. But your evasion is well-noted. Thx.
 
You do realise that the mainstream medical community knows and understands this whole area hugely better than you could ever hope to do, right?

By the way, and with your above statement in mind, what do you think about the circumcision of baby males?
Circumcision is moderate compared to removing the whole organ as transwomen require. However, pediatricians in NZ at least no longer recommend it.
 
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