Christianity is a grotesque blight!

I am interested in an intellectual intelligent honest discussion about those verses being an airtight case for YHWH being a human sacrifice commanding and accepting and enjoying deity. I would like to see any cracks if anyone can point them out.


I'm no Bible scholar, but to me both of these passages strongly suggest that they were written during a time of transition in which older simpler stories of a god rewarding human sacrifice during times of extraordinary stress (such as famine or war) with divine favors (such as rainfall or military success), were being reinterpreted as representing acts of redress of injustices, such redress being demanded by the deity but carried out by the authorities.

Why do I think a reinterpretation was going on then? Because, for one thing, times of reinterpretation tend to be when things were most likely to get written down. With ancient texts in particular, we tend to think of whatever's written down as representing ideas and beliefs that must have been long-standing and well-established at the time they were written, but there's no good reason to think that as any sort of general rule. Quite the contrary. Just repeating the stories and lessons everyone already knows doesn't require that, but presenting a new version or interpretation to a population does.

In this specific case, that would explain why passages that are about crimes and punishments (unsanctioned killings in one case, theft in the other) also include elements of human sacrifice narratives (the lost favor of the deity being restored by the executions). A more primitive blood god was being recast as a god of covenants and justice. Of course, everyone's idea of justice at that time (and for millennia afterward) was itself crude, with inherited familial guilt a common idea and death a common penalty, and the passages reflect that as well.

What is completely clear in the context of the Old Testament is that the executions described in these passages were not sacrifices. I suppose you could call them that, in the same hyperbolic way you could call the tens of thousands of annual traffic accident victims in the present day sacrifices to our worship of petroleum, but that characterization would be meaningless to the writers and the original audiences of the passages. Contrast with the story of Abraham and Isaac, which is suppose to represent a would-be sacrifice. There, there's an altar and a sacred ritual, not the ignominious means (hanging and stoning, in the passages) used for judicial executions. It requires another reinterpretation, perhaps one from millennia later in another set of new texts, to shed doubt on the clear distinction between the two.
 
I'm no Bible scholar, but to me both of these passages strongly suggest that they were written during a time of transition in which older simpler stories of a god rewarding human sacrifice during times of extraordinary stress (such as famine or war) with divine favors (such as rainfall or military success), were being reinterpreted as representing acts of redress of injustices, such redress being demanded by the deity but carried out by the authorities.

Why do I think a reinterpretation was going on then? Because, for one thing, times of reinterpretation tend to be when things were most likely to get written down. With ancient texts in particular, we tend to think of whatever's written down as representing ideas and beliefs that must have been long-standing and well-established at the time they were written, but there's no good reason to think that as any sort of general rule. Quite the contrary. Just repeating the stories and lessons everyone already knows doesn't require that, but presenting a new version or interpretation to a population does.

In this specific case, that would explain why passages that are about crimes and punishments (unsanctioned killings in one case, theft in the other) also include elements of human sacrifice narratives (the lost favor of the deity being restored by the executions). A more primitive blood god was being recast as a god of covenants and justice. Of course, everyone's idea of justice at that time (and for millennia afterward) was itself crude, with inherited familial guilt a common idea and death a common penalty, and the passages reflect that as well.

What is completely clear in the context of the Old Testament is that the executions described in these passages were not sacrifices. I suppose you could call them that, in the same hyperbolic way you could call the tens of thousands of annual traffic accident victims in the present day sacrifices to our worship of petroleum, but that characterization would be meaningless to the writers and the original audiences of the passages. Contrast with the story of Abraham and Isaac, which is suppose to represent a would-be sacrifice. There, there's an altar and a sacred ritual, not the ignominious means (hanging and stoning, in the passages) used for judicial executions. It requires another reinterpretation, perhaps one from millennia later in another set of new texts, to shed doubt on the clear distinction between the two.

Yes, in some ways, I think it shows that the bible was an accurate representation of the preliterate myths.. The authors put in the (if not actually mutually-contradictory, at least somewhat inconsistent) flood and creation myths without trying to reconcile them. Also the well-attested remnants of polytheism or possibly henotheism and then monolatry - after all, Pharaoh's priests were also able to perform magic, but the LORD just performed better tricks.

Also on an aside, several stories make more sense in the context of a flat Earth. Not just the flood, but also the Devil taking Jesus to a high point to see "All the kingdoms of Earth".
 
Several posts moved to AAH for rule 11 and 12 breaches. Keep to your membership agreement.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
Yes, in some ways, I think it shows that the bible was an accurate representation of the preliterate myths.. The authors put in the (if not actually mutually-contradictory, at least somewhat inconsistent) flood and creation myths without trying to reconcile them.
And why would they? You go with the material you have, not what you wish you had.

Also on an aside, several stories make more sense in the context of a flat Earth. Not just the flood, but also the Devil taking Jesus to a high point to see "All the kingdoms of Earth".
Or there weren't that many 'kindoms', and they weren't that far away. Or the Devil was able to bend light to see around the globe (BTW this does actually happen, which is why measuring the curvature of the Earth by line of sight is so error-prone).

Or perhaps the whole thing was metaphorical, and perhaps the people of that time understood that it was. For a more modern example:-

I can see Russia from my house!
It was actually comedian Tina Fey, who was impersonating Ms. Palin on Saturday Night Live, who uttered the line that is now widely attributed to the former Alaska governor.

The basis for this line comes from a September 2008 interview with ABC News's Charles Gibson, who asked Palin what insights she had from her state being so close to Russia. She responded: "They're our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska."
 
And why would they? You go with the material you have, not what you wish you had.

Or there weren't that many 'kindoms', and they weren't that far away. Or the Devil was able to bend light to see around the globe (BTW this does actually happen, which is why measuring the curvature of the Earth by line of sight is so error-prone). Or perhaps the whole thing was metaphorical, and perhaps the people of that time understood that it was. For a more modern example:-
I can see Russia from my house!

I think it's more simple to think that as you go up you can see further so if you go high enough, you will see the whole disc of the world.
 
"Entreated" doesn't mean anything like "pleased" or "enjoying" in any dictionary definition I can find.


What about Joshua 7?


Entreat = supplicate = ask someone to do something

"God was Entreated for the land"... means that the human sacrifice was a supplication for stopping the famine and YHWH received the supplication and accepted it and stopped the famine... thus he was pleased with the human sacrifice as a supplication for stopping the famine... as evinced by him having stopped the famine which he caused and said earlier that it was because he is displeased with Saul's actions.


  • 2 Samuel 21:1-14... And there was a famine in the days of David three years.... And YHWH said: 'It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he put to death the Gibeonites.'... the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore unto Saul... and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul... and they hanged them in the mountain before YHWH, and they fell all seven together; and they were put to death in the days of harvest... And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water was poured upon them from heaven...And after that God was entreated for the land.

Masoretic Hebrew Bible
  • 2 Samuel 21:14 ... וַיֵּעָתֵר אֱלֹהִים לָאָרֶץ, אַחֲרֵי-כֵן
Complete Jewish Bible
  • 2 Samuel 21:14 ...Only after that was God prevailed on to show mercy to the land.
New Catholic Bible
  • 2 Samuel 21:14 ...So they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God heeded the prayer for the land.
Easy To Read Version
  • 2 Samuel 21:14 ...as the king commanded. After that God again listened to the prayers of the people in that land.
New King James Version
  • 2 Samuel 21:14 ...they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God heeded the prayer for the land
 
Yes. What possible relevance does it have? What do you hope to achieve by raising it here?


Never mind my purpose.... do you agree with the OP's thesis or not?

Namely...
do you agree or not that YHWH is a human sacrifice demanding and accepting deity?​
 
OK, my take on this: "YHWH", I assume, is the the deity depicted in the OT of the Christian bible. The OT is a collection of bloody tales full of all the magic and violence that one can expect in sagas from that era. They are no better and no worse than similar legends from other cultures. As all deities from such tales "YHWH" is a bloodthirsty bastard like any leader figure from the time.

So yes, "YHWH" definitely condones human sacrifice etc. Whether it takes pleasure in this is another matter, after all it might say that "this hurts me as much as it hurts you"

So fine, but then what? Obviously, most modern Christians, and I suspect, most religious Jews don't subscribe to the "YHWH" depiction of their god.

Hans
 
So yes, "YHWH" definitely condones human sacrifice etc.


YHWH commands and expects and receives and accepts and gets appeased by human sacrifice... as proven in the OP.

And as depicted in 2 Samuel 21 and Joshua 7... he even creates the situation where people are tortured to the point where they will appease him by giving him the human sacrifice he commands and expects.


OK, my take on this: "YHWH", I assume, is the the deity depicted in the OT of the Christian bible.


He is the deity who raped Mary to ill beget Jesus in order to make a human sacrifice of him to himself to appease himself.


So fine, but then what? Obviously, most modern Christians, and I suspect, most religious Jews don't subscribe to the "YHWH" depiction of their god.


Your suspicion is wrong... YHWH is the Father in the Christian Trinity.... you know ... the Father The Son and the Holy Casper???

And YHWH is God and the only god in the Shema Yisrael
Shema Yisrael (Shema Israel or Sh'ma Yisrael; Hebrew: שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל Šəmaʿ Yīsrāʾēl, "Hear, O Israel") is a Jewish prayer (known as the Shema) that serves as a centerpiece of the morning and evening Jewish prayer services. Its first verse encapsulates the monotheistic essence of Judaism: "Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God, YHWH is one" (Hebrew: שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָֽד׃), found in Deuteronomy 6:4
 
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YHWH commands and expects and receives and accepts and gets appeased by human sacrifice... as proven in the OP.

And as depicted in 2 Samuel 21 and Joshua 7... he even creates the situation where people are tortured to the point where they will appease him by giving him the human sacrifice he commands and expects.





He is the deity who raped Mary to ill beget Jesus in order to make a human sacrifice of him to himself to appease himself.





Your suspicion is wrong... YHWH is the Father in the Christian Trinity.... you know ... the Father The Son and the Holy Casper???

And YHWH is God and the only god in the Shema Yisrael

If you take the scripture at face value and assume it is the incontrovertible truth, then yes. I'm not religious myself, but I have also never met a religious person who actually took scripture that literally. Even some bible-thumping Creationists I have met would call many passages of the Bible "symbolic" or something. At least when faced with the obvious self-contradictions therein. ;)

You could no doubt find some frothing fundamentalists who will embrace it all, but how interesting are they?

Hans
 
If you take the scripture at face value and assume it is the incontrovertible truth,


It does not matter whether you do or not... it is utterly immaterial to the discussion of the OP.... I suggest you read the OP again.

The discussion is whether YHWH who is a character in the fairy tales called the Buybull is... as depicted in the narrative of the Buybull... a deity who demands and commands and accepts and gets appeased by human sacrifice.

Whether the fairy tales are true or not is totally irrelevant.



then yes. I'm not religious myself, but I have also never met a religious person who actually took scripture that literally.


And of course you have met every christian and Jew and Muslim and Mormon and and and and in the whole globe... right???

Hasty Generalization Fallacy


Even some bible-thumping Creationists I have met would call many passages of the Bible "symbolic" or something. At least when faced with the obvious self-contradictions therein.


Nice... I am glad you were so lucky... but reality and facts say that you evidently have not met many.

Hasty Generalization Fallacy


You could no doubt find some frothing fundamentalists who will embrace it all, but how interesting are they?


Again... not some... just because you have not met any it does not mean that you can engage in a Hasty Generalization Fallacy


... but how interesting are they?


They are the ones causing all the mayhem all over the WORLD right now...

But... again... this is utterly immaterial to the discussion of the OP.... I suggest you read the OP again.
 
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He accepts a specific one, sure. Even if he accepted more, so what? If no one is actually practicing human sacrifice what does it matter?
 
*snip*
But... again... this is utterly immaterial to the discussion of the OP.... I suggest you read the OP again.

Ah fine. I have read the OP (several times) and I have answered it in post #39.

Hans
 
I think there could be disagreement here on what constitutes "sacrifice."

This is probably not a fruitful route to pursue here. It is without question, I think, that the fictional god of the Bible is a bloodthirsty thing, an excuse for all sorts of human wrongdoing in his name. One can quibble about whether he "enjoys" it or not, but we must conclude that it certainly doesn't upset him much.

I would, however, consider the possibility here that though sacrifice might be a category of murderous behavior, it is not the reverse.

There is a ritual sacrifice described in the Bible, which involves a degree of ceremony, burning a part of the victim at an altar, and in some figurative way sending a part of it, at least the smoke, to the deity, who is said to be pleased by the offering. I would suggest that this is not the same thing as when that god orders a city to be sacked or a dissident to be slaughtered, and so forth. It's a murder, a genocide, a rotten and despicable thing, and a good reason to rant about the unsuitability of the god in question and to argue that such a god should not be followed, and all sorts of other expressions of disdain for the machinations of such a god or of those who invent him. But I would not consider it a sacrifice in the usual sense of the word, even if one could contend that the result makes the deity happy.

Interpretations vary with regard to a document as ambiguous and contradictory as the Bible. I have frequently seen suggestions that the story of Abraham and Isaac is intended to show an end to some presumed history of human sacrifice, a practice which it would appear Abraham was initially OK with, and which God cancelled. That's getting pretty metaphorical and dubious, but in any case, even if it is indeed a sign that human sacrifice would no longer be a practice, it does not in any way make that god any less bloodthirsty and malignant where it comes to killing the presumed enemies of his people. I'd just say, though, that those enemies were simply murdered, not sacrificed.
 
Ah fine. I have read the OP (several times) and I have answered it in post #39.


And I discussed the problems with that answer in post #40

And you responded to the points made in post #40 in post #41.

And I pointed out the fallacies in post #41 in the post #42.

To which you now respond again with your original problematic answer in post #39 despite the problems pointed out in post #40.
 
And I discussed the problems with that answer in post #40

And you responded to the points made in post #40 in post #41.

And I pointed out the fallacies in post #41 in the post #42.

To which you now respond again with your original problematic answer in post #39 despite the problems pointed out in post #40.

The only problematic thing about my post is that you disagree. And that is no problem. You are obviously as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Hans
 
Never mind my purpose.... do you agree with the OP's thesis or not?

Namely...
do you agree or not that YHWH is a human sacrifice demanding and accepting deity?​


Ok. Then what?


What does this "Ok" mean.... does it mean yes you agree with the OP's thesis that YHWH is a human sacrifice demanding and accepting deity?


.... Then what?


Then nothing... you agree with the OP... so then great:thumbsup:... we have nothing further to discuss:thumbsup::thumbsup:.... QED!!!
 

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