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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Regarding your highlighted... how does it makes sense to allow double mastectomies when 90% of them are going to be based on a false diagnosis?
If the legislature had evidence that the false positive rate is actually 90% then they might be able to justify a blanket ban. They do not have any such evidence (or at least no one here has mentioned it) and such bans will prevent us from performing clinical trials within the jurisdiction.

Seriously, you're talking about allowing 10 young females to decide to cut their breasts off... because 1 of them might really, really mean it? Does that actually make sense to you?
Feminists have an expression: "My body, my choice."

We can agree that below a certain age this expression no longer makes moral sense, but we cannot agree that 18-y.o.'s should be denied this specific choice, if they have been properly diagnosed.
 
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I mean woman should be able to cut her breasts off if she just wants to, gender dysphoria doesn't even have to come into. I mean breast reduction is already a thing for a multitude of reasons. This is a whole bucket of nothing.
 
FYI for some context as to why I'm such a weird 3rd position odd man out in this discussion is largely that.

To over simplify it I think transpeople should be able to do pretty much everything they are asking to do, but not because they are trans just because I wouldn't care anyway.

There is not one single thing I think a transperson should be "able" (speaking legally and social pressure) to do because they are trans that a person should be able to because they want to.

And that just leaves us with this thread, an endless, never ending, never advancing debate about a difference between "person who acts like a certain gender" and "person who identifies as the other gender" which isn't a question it's just pure semantics and categorization.

And that's actually a question I've kind of wanted to ask the trans side there's just never been a really good time in this discussion to ask.

What should trans people be able to do that people who just want to do something the other sex generally does shouldn't?

Should you have to declare yourself trans to crossdress? To use different pronouns? To us a specific bathroom? And I want answer no mush-mouthed vagueness about "well it's complicated in a way that will never be clarified ever."

So real world hypothetical. I'm a biological male in a men's public bathroom. I'm biological woman who identifies as a man comes in. Don't ask how I know just run with it. I don't kick them out of "my" space. Then I biological woman who DOESN'T identify as a man comes in. Again I don't how I would know, sorta both the point and not the point at this juncture but just go with it.

Would be transphobic to NOT ask the biological woman who doesn't identify as a man to leave?

And this isn't a joke or a trap question or a setup for a gotcha. My biggest issue with has always been if you don't treat the biological sexes differently the whole concept of "trans" gives you nothing to do, it's meaningless.
 
FYI for some context as to why I'm such a weird 3rd position odd man out in this discussion is largely that.

To over simplify it I think transpeople should be able to do pretty much everything they are asking to do, but not because they are trans just because I wouldn't care anyway.

There is not one single thing I think a transperson should be "able" (speaking legally and social pressure) to do because they are trans that a person should be able to because they want to.

And that just leaves us with this thread, an endless, never ending, never advancing debate about a difference between "person who acts like a certain gender" and "person who identifies as the other gender" which isn't a question it's just pure semantics and categorization.

And that's actually a question I've kind of wanted to ask the trans side there's just never been a really good time in this discussion to ask.

What should trans people be able to do that people who just want to do something the other sex generally does shouldn't?

Should you have to declare yourself trans to crossdress? To use different pronouns? To us a specific bathroom? And I want answer no mush-mouthed vagueness about "well it's complicated in a way that will never be clarified ever."

So real world hypothetical. I'm a biological male in a men's public bathroom. I'm biological woman who identifies as a man comes in. Don't ask how I know just run with it. I don't kick them out of "my" space. Then I biological woman who DOESN'T identify as a man comes in. Again I don't how I would know, sorta both the point and not the point at this juncture but just go with it.

Would be transphobic to NOT ask the biological woman who doesn't identify as a man to leave?

And this isn't a joke or a trap question or a setup for a gotcha. My biggest issue with has always been if you don't treat the biological sexes differently the whole concept of "trans" gives you nothing to do, it's meaningless.

Joe, have you actually read this thread? You make this long post without addressing the fact that (almost always) self ID’d transwomen are insisting on entering women’s private places and institutions, sports, refuges, prisons etc etc and women are sometimes assaulted or otherwise damaged as a result. This is “meaningless”?

Have you looked at any of the many links with concrete examples of women being assaulted and damaged? There’s a lot there.
 
Should you have to declare yourself trans to crossdress?

No, I don't think so. This is a weird one, though, because I don't think anyone thinks you need to be trans to crossdress. Seems like most people think everyone should be allowed to or no one should be allowed to, I'm not seeing the constituency for "only trans can cross dress".

I'm in the "everyone can cross dress" camp.

To use different pronouns?

Except for kings and queens (and people with pretentions to same), nobody actually uses pronouns for themselves. People request that other people use pronouns when referring to that person.

Pronoun preference is a matter of courtesy, it should never be a matter of law. And that applies on both sides, meaning the person making the request and the person deciding to grant the request. I think it's rude to request the use of non-standard pronouns. I think it's also rude to request the use of pronouns that don't match how one presents oneself. So my standard is correlated with trans status, but it's not identical to trans status.

To us a specific bathroom?

I'm not really sure about why you're asking the question. The problem doesn't seem to be that males are going into female bathrooms without declaring themselves to be trans. The problem seems to be males who DO declare themselves to be trans, but still present as male, going into female bathrooms. It's not the declaration/non-declaration of trans status that's causing friction.

If you pass as female, use the female bathroom. If you don't, use the male bathroom. Note that passing is a higher standard than presenting.

So real world hypothetical. I'm a biological male in a men's public bathroom. I'm biological woman who identifies as a man comes in. Don't ask how I know just run with it. I don't kick them out of "my" space. Then I biological woman who DOESN'T identify as a man comes in. Again I don't how I would know, sorta both the point and not the point at this juncture but just go with it.

Would be transphobic to NOT ask the biological woman who doesn't identify as a man to leave?

In that scenario, you aren't upholding sex segregation. That's not transphobic, but it's also not trans inclusive. It's just... odd.

The trans activist position is that we should maintain sex segregation, but provide an exception for all trans people. The opposing position (which gets labelled as transphobic but that's not quite the right term) is that we should maintain sex segregation but no exceptions should ever be made for trans people. Middle ground positions are that exceptions can be made for trans people who meet certain criteria. And the true transphobe position is that there shouldn't even be any trans people.

The position that we should just abolish sex segregation entirely (and as a side effect make trans status irrelevant) is orthogonal to all of those positions.

And this isn't a joke or a trap question or a setup for a gotcha. My biggest issue with has always been if you don't treat the biological sexes differently the whole concept of "trans" gives you nothing to do, it's meaningless.

That's absolutely true. Without sex segregation of some sort, trans status is irrelevant.

But almost nobody wants to do that, including the trans activists. And there would be serious consequences if we did. It's very much a Chesterton's fence.
 
No, I don't think so. This is a weird one, though, because I don't think anyone thinks you need to be trans to crossdress. Seems like most people think everyone should be allowed to or no one should be allowed to, I'm not seeing the constituency for "only trans can cross dress".

I'm in the "everyone can cross dress" camp.

But that's transface! :D
 
I mean woman should be able to cut her breasts off if she just wants to, gender dysphoria doesn't even have to come into.

Minors shouldn't be able to. Hell, we prohibit young children from even piercing their ears, and that's reversible.

The concept of people being too young to do certain things that we have no problem with adults doing is pretty damn standard.
 
I suggest that it may mean that we will eventually have transgender prisons or at least separate wings. It seems obvious that keeping them with male prisoners is problematic and keeping them with female prisoners is also not a good idea.
I doubt there will ever be separate prisons. Once the predators know they will not be with people possessing vaginas, there will be a dramatic drop in claims of being trans-women.
 
I mean woman should be able to cut her breasts off if she just wants to, gender dysphoria doesn't even have to come into. I mean breast reduction is already a thing for a multitude of reasons. This is a whole bucket of nothing.

Adults. Adults should be able to. Minors should not.

It's not a whole bucket of nothing for a minor to undergo an entirely voluntary mastectomy.
 
And that just leaves us with this thread, an endless, never ending, never advancing debate about a difference between "person who acts like a certain gender" and "person who identifies as the other gender" which isn't a question it's just pure semantics and categorization.
That might be your question, but it's not the one we've been wrestling with in this thread. In this thread, it's the distinction between "person who acts like or identifies as a certain gender" versus "person who is a specific sex". It's not about some vague differences in the meaning of "gender", it's about the very real differences between gender identity and biological sex.

Should you have to declare yourself trans to crossdress?
Nobody in this thread gives a damn how a person wants to dress. Everyone can dress however they want, I don't think any of us cares.

To use different pronouns?
People don't use pronouns about themselves. The discussion is whether or not a person has the privilege to obligate other people to use particular pronouns when speaking about them.

To us a specific bathroom?
Given that bathrooms are sex-specific spaces, what a person declares about themself is, to me, irrelevant. Sex doesn't change when one says a magic formula. I'll include a minor caveat, which ought to be obvious but somehow never is... If a person passes well enough that they are not identified as being of the wrong sex for that space, then hooray for them, they get to use it and nobody is going to complain because nobody knows. This is followed by a corollary caveat, which I also think ought to be obvious, but somehow isn't... when one whips out genitals that belong to the other sex, they 100% no longer pass. Seriously, if Blair White whips out their donger in the ladies, Blair will no longer pass as a female.

So real world hypothetical. I'm a biological male in a men's public bathroom. I'm biological woman who identifies as a man comes in. Don't ask how I know just run with it. I don't kick them out of "my" space. Then I biological woman who DOESN'T identify as a man comes in. Again I don't how I would know, sorta both the point and not the point at this juncture but just go with it.

Would be transphobic to NOT ask the biological woman who doesn't identify as a man to leave?

And this isn't a joke or a trap question or a setup for a gotcha. My biggest issue with has always been if you don't treat the biological sexes differently the whole concept of "trans" gives you nothing to do, it's meaningless.

Once again, I will point out that the complementary situations are not equivalent. A female entering a male-only space is voluntarily placing themself at risk. A male entering a female-only space is coercively placing everyone else at risk.

If Daniel walks into the lion's den, Daniel is at risk of injury from the lion. If a lion walks into Daniel's house, Daniel is at risk of injury from the lion.

In neither scenario is this a big concern for the lion.
 
The trans activist position is that we should maintain sex segregation, but provide an exception for all trans people. The opposing position (which gets labelled as transphobic but that's not quite the right term) is that we should maintain sex segregation but no exceptions should ever be made for trans people. Middle ground positions are that exceptions can be made for trans people who meet certain criteria. And the true transphobe position is that there shouldn't even be any trans people.

To be fair, the "opposing position" was fine with the "middle ground" position, until we were told that there can be no criteria.

If there are no criteria, there can be no exceptions. Because without criteria, there is no sex-separated space in the first place.
 
When is someone old enough that we should let them decide instead of substituting the judgment of (conservative) legislators who've never met them or their doctors?

She just told you. When they become adults, which means at age 18. Same age we allow them to make their own decisions about smoking, having sex, enter into contracts, and countless other issues.
 
She just told you. When they become adults, which means at age 18. Same age we allow them to make their own decisions about smoking, having sex, enter into contracts, and countless other issues.
The age is 16 for sex in Nebraska; the bill in question proposes to raise it to 19 for all gender-related medical treatment. This strikes me as a bit, well, paternalistic. Sort of flies in the face of a small-gov't ethos. Also makes me wonder why they didn't pick 18.
 
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Is your argument that it should be 16 for getting a cosmetic mastectomy, not 18?
Calling it "cosmetic" makes it sound like it is not the standard of care being prescribed by a team of doctors to treat a condition with well-defined diagnostic criteria. If the doctors and the parents and the patient all agree with the treatment plan, I don't see why the legislature should make patients drive to Illinois for this particular treatment.
 
Is your argument that it should be 16 for getting a cosmetic mastectomy, not 18?

I think the interesting point that Damien's posts bring up is the inconsistency and arbitrariness of the age-based definitions of adult.

10 may contract for life insurance. (This seems weird.)
16 to drive a car.
16 for sex.
18 to vote.
18 to join the army.
18 can enter into binding contracts or sign a lease.
19 is the age of majority. (One of three states higher than 18.)
19 for medical decisions.
(Cross the border to Iowa, and that last goes down to 18.)
21 to buy tobacco.
21 to Drink.

Partly from: https://www.findlaw.com/state/nebraska-law/nebraska-legal-ages-laws.html#:~:text=Nebraska%20Legal%20Ages%20Laws%20at%20a%20Glance%20Nebraska,being%20declared%20an%20adult%20in%20Nebraska%20is%20marriage.
 
Calling it "cosmetic" makes it sound like it is not the standard of care being prescribed by a team of doctors to treat a condition with well-defined diagnostic criteria.

Describe it however you want, it's still cosmetic. The breast tissue isn't removed for functional reasons, but because of how it looks.

If the doctors and the parents and the patient all agree with the treatment plan, I don't see why the legislature should make patients drive to Illinois for this particular treatment.

If the parents, child, and their partner agree, I don't see why the legislature should make them fly to Japan for the child and partner to have sex.

Sorry, but that's not good enough. We prohibit children from doing lots of things on the basis that they are too young, regardless of what their parents or anyone else thinks. If you want to argue that we shouldn't do it for this, you need to present an argument for when children specifically shod be allowed to do this as children, and not wait. "Standard of care" doesn't suffice, because that standard has not been based on anything solid.
 
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