Electric universe theories here.

[Ziggurat]

Don't really have to. Don't really see me publishing any papers anytime soon.

The problem isn't that you can't publish papers. It's that you can't even understand the papers you cite.

what I do understand is the premise...

No, you don't. You really, really don't. You don't understand any physics, you don't know any math, you do not have the intellectual tools to understand anything being discussed.

 

[jonesdave116]

Current Sheets, Plasmoids and Flux Ropes in the Heliosphere

So your assertion based of a 1938 paper is not correct, unsurprisingly!

So, let's first have a look at the list of authors for that paper;

O. Pezzi, F. Pecora, J. le Roux, N. E. Engelbrecht, A. Greco, S. Servidio, H. V. Malova, O. V. Khabarova, O. Malandraki, R. Bruno, W. H. Matthaeus, G. Li, L. M. Zelenyi, R. A. Kislov, V. N. Obridko & V. D. Kuznetsov

We'll come back to a few of them.

Let's also look at some of the papers referenced in that paper;

F.V. Coroniti, On the tearing mode in quasi-neutral sheets. J. Geophys. Res. 85(A12), 6719–6728 (1980)

P.L. Pritchett, F.V. Coroniti, V.K. Decyk, Three-dimensional stability of thin quasi-neutral current sheets. J. Geophys. Res. 101(A12), 27413–27430 (1996)

M.I. Sitnov, H.V. Malova, A.T.Y. Lui, Quasi-neutral sheet tearing instability induced by electron preferential acceleration from stochasticity. J. Geophys. Res. 102(A1), 163–174 (1997) (I believe the latter author is known to Tusenfem. The second author is a co-author on the paper Sol88 linked!)

Back to the authors of this paper that Sol, for reasons known only to himself, thinks contradicts Alfven's claim that the solar wind has to be net neutral;

Let's just concentrate on the lead author and a couple of others, whose papers I have already dealt with on here;

O. Pezzi, H. V. Malova, & O. V. Khabarova.

(Bolded authors are co-authors of the Pezzi, et al paper linked by Sol.)

Differential kinetic dynamics and heating of ions in the turbulent solar wind
F Valentini, D Perrone, S Stabile, O Pezzi, S Servidio, R De Marco, F Marcucci, R Bruno, B Lavraud, J De Keyser, G Consolini, D Brienza, L Sorriso-Valvo, A Retinò, A Vaivads, M Salatti and P Veltri

In this model...The displacement current is neglected and quasi-neutrality is assumed.

Multilayered structure of thin current sheets: multiscale ”Matreshka” model
A. S. Sharma, L. M. Zelenyi, H. V. Malova, V. Yu. Popov, & D. C. Delcourt

The electrons are considered magnetized with finite inertia across the field lines and negligible inertia for field-aligned motion. The resulting charge separation generates an ambipolar electric field Ez supporting the quasi-neutrality of the plasma.

Universal Scaling of Thin Current Sheets
L. M. Zelenyi, H. V. Malova, E. E. Grigorenko, V. Yu Popov,
and E. M. Dubinin

...due to plasma quasi‐neutrality ion and electron densities are almost equal: ni = ne ~ n;

PARTICLE DYNAMICS IN THE RECONNECTING HELIOSPHERIC CURRENT SHEET: SOLAR WIND DATA VERSUS THREE-DIMENSIONAL PARTICLE-IN-CELL SIMULATIONS
Zharkova, V. V. & Khabarova, O. V. (2012)

Note that the average charge density over the simulation region is close to zero, which mean that the current sheet as a whole remains electrically neutral.

I could go on, but it is getting boring. Suffice to say that Sol's claim that the paper he linked contradicts Alfven's 'zero net current' claim form 1939, is due to his inability to understand what he is reading and quoting. Surprising absolutely nobody.

 

[Sol88]

The problem isn't that you can't publish papers. It's that you can't even understand the papers you cite.



No, you don't. You really, really don't. You don't understand any physics, you don't know any math, you do not have the intellectual tools to understand anything being discussed.

yeah...nah, nice confabulation!

The problem was YOUR (mainstream Models)

Abstract

Our understanding of processes occurring in the heliosphere historically began
with reduced dimensionality - one-dimensional (1D) and two-dimensional (2D) sketches
and models, which aimed to illustrate views on large-scale structures in the solar wind. However,
any reduced dimensionality vision of the heliosphere limits the possible interpretations
of in-situ observations. Accounting for non-planar structures, e.g. current sheets, magnetic
islands, flux ropes as well as plasma bubbles, is decisive to shed the light on a variety of
phenomena, such as particle acceleration and energy dissipation.

Current Sheets, Plasmoids and Flux Ropes in the Heliosphere

When you do use the correct model,

Modern theories and observational studies describe the HCS and similarly strong CSs as
essentially non-planar complex plasma structures surrounded by a plasma sheet in which numerous
small-scale reconnecting CSs separated by plasmoids occur (Khabarova et al. 2015;
Malova et al. 2018; Adhikari et al. 2019; Mingalev et al. 2019). CSs are unstable in natural
plasmas. Owing to the constantly changing environment, CSs are subject to different instabilities,
including the tearing instability (Zelenyi et al. 1998, 2004; Tenerani et al. 2015a).

These instabilities may impact CSs simultaneously with various fluctuations, destabilizing,
triggering nonlinear processes at CSs and even destroying them. Therefore, strong quasistable
CSs, such as the HCS and CSs at leading edges of ICMEs and CIRs/SIRs, represent a well-known source of turbulence and intermittency. On the other hand, numerous thin and
unstable CSs are generated in turbulent and intermittent regions (e.g., Servidio et al. (2009),
Matthaeus et al. (2015)). This dualism reflects an intrinsic tie between instabilities,

Basically the Solar Wind is not some homogeneous plasma the has equal numbers of + and -. In fact

Summarizing the results of studies of particle acceleration associated with magnetic
reconnection, we would like to stress out the fact that, besides the obvious role of the
reconnection-induced electric field, charged particles can be energized by the first- and
second-order Fermi mechanisms and the so-called anti-reconnection electric field operating
during contraction and merging of FRs/plasmoids/MIs (Zank et al. 2014; le Roux et al.
2015, 2016, 2019; Xia and Zharkova 2018, 2020).

The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE are not really concerned with magnetogravity of the mainstream in the least. Electric fields, Electric Currents...Electric Universe!

CSs, FRs/MIs, and plasmoids/blobs of various origins and scales exist in the turbulent
solar wind

The solar wind is chockablok with electric currents!

Were you aware of this FACT?

 

[Sol88]

SNIPPED the



I could go on, but it is getting boring. Suffice to say that Sol's claim that the paper he linked contradicts Alfven's 'zero net current' claim form 1939, is due to his inability to understand what he is reading and quoting. Surprising absolutely nobody.

So easy to shoot yourself in the foot, jd116.

READ CAREFULLY

CSs, FRs/MIs, and plasmoids/blobs of various origins and scales exist in the turbulent solar wind

Cant happen in your (and Alfven's) solar wind. It really seems a case here with other posters that

Modern views on this point
suggest that both the loops and HCS folding/rippling exist but at far smaller scales, produced
by local dynamical processes (see Part I, Sect. 2.3.1).

Modern theories and observational studies describe the HCS and similarly strong CSs as
essentially non-planar complex plasma structures surrounded by a plasma sheet in which numerous
small-scale reconnecting CSs separated by plasmoids occur (Khabarova et al. 2015;
Malova et al. 2018; Adhikari et al. 2019; Mingalev et al. 2019).

We admit
that the lack of 3D models due to an obvious complexity of their building as well as the insufficiency
of multi-spacecraft data to restore 3D structures are disadvantages of the modern
theoretical and observational approaches. Meanwhile, we can conclude that employing contemporary
2D models and corresponding simplified methods widely used in space science
allows general understanding of the numerous complex processes if one initially considers
various possible 3D topologies occurring in the real space plasmas.

seem not to be understood, including the so called super duper space plasma physicist.



The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE mob have indeed initially consider the 3D models. jd116 seems way back in history still, why is this

The transition from the
2D to 3D models to describe complex 3D processes and non-planar structures in the solar
wind is the next step of the development of heliospheric physics.

so hard for the posters here to transition.

It's almost like they seem threatened by the alternative.

 

[Sol88]

The solar wind @jd116's scale is indeed homogeneous quasi-neutral plasma and no net current anywhere, doing anything.

The modern, mid 2000's on, is showing this interpretation to be totally incorrect. Pretty confident the Parker Solar Probe will upset the current paradigm.

These Electric currents (Birkeland currents for brevity)

CSs, FRs/MIs, and plasmoids/blobs of various origins and scales exist in the turbulent
solar wind

in the heliosphere.

Including,

"The fast solar wind helped to maintain the magnetic field signature over such a large distance. If it can persist as far as Ulysses, there's no reason to presume that it wouldn't continue to the edge of the heliosphere (the boundary about 100AU from the Sun between the solar wind and the interstellar medium)," says Jones, "This discovery makes us wonder whether Ulysses or other spacecraft have crossed a comet tail before. So we're going back to look again for other signatures. But it's probably a rare event," says Jones

PR 24-2000: Ulysses Feels the Brush of a Comet's Tail

There will also be a return current. As jd116 says.

 

[steenkh]

It appears to me that Sol88’s EU is a version of the God of the Gaps argument: So far nothing indicates that EU is right, but there is still hope! The solar wind is more complicated than previously thought, so maybe EU can still topple all physics and be right after all! The Parker Solar Probe may still deliver results that could topple all of physics! Maybe another probe in a 100 years could prove EU right after all.

Hope is vanishing, but as long as magic is possible in some far future result, EU could still be right!

All electric phenomena are Birkeland currents! Plasma is not a gas!

 

[jonesdave116]

Basically the Solar Wind is not some homogeneous plasma the has equal numbers of + and -. In fact

Yes, it has to have ~ equal numbers of positive and negative charges in it. And nobody is claiming any differently.

The solar wind is chockablok with electric currents!

Were you aware of this FACT?

Yes, we have already told you that there are currents within the solar wind. That does not make the solar wind a current. As Alfven explained in terms a 12 year old could understand. Learn to read.

 

[jonesdave116]

READ CAREFULLY

Irony much, from someone who hasn't got a clue about what he is reading?

Cant happen in your (and Alfven's) solar wind.

Yes it can. And nobody is claiming any differently.

The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE mob have indeed initially consider the 3D models. jd116 seems way back in history still, why is this so hard for the posters here to transition.

The EU loons haven't got a clue about plasma physics. They have precisely no-one qualified in the subject, and nobody with a clue about the subject. Nor have they ever performed any sort of plasma modelling.

It's almost like they seem threatened by the alternative.

You don't have an alternative. It doesn't exist.

 

[jonesdave116]

The modern, mid 2000's on, is showing this interpretation to be totally incorrect. Pretty confident the Parker Solar Probe will upset the current paradigm.

No it hasn't, and nobody with a clue is claiming otherwise. Which is why you can't show anyone claiming otherwise.

These Electric currents (Birkeland currents for brevity) in the heliosphere.

There are no Birkeland currents in the heliosphere, other than those that exist in planetary magnetospheres.

Including, PR 24-2000: Ulysses Feels the Brush of a Comet's Tail

Which is not a Birkeland current! Learn to read. The only current you are getting in a cometary tail is a cross-tail current. Which is not a field-aligned current, and therefore cannot be a Birkeland current. As has already been explained to you.

 

[jonesdave116]

The modern, mid 2000's on, is showing this interpretation to be totally incorrect. Pretty confident the Parker Solar Probe will upset the current paradigm.

Is a lie. And there is a very easy way to settle the question. Sol merely has to name the author/s he thinks have shown that the solar wind is not net neutral at macroscopic scales. Then I'll contact them. Loser never posts on here again. Deal?

I think we all know that Sol will avoid such a deal with yet another gish-gallop of wilful ignorance.

 

[Ziggurat]

The ELECTRIC UNIVERSE mob have indeed initially consider the 3D models.

So where are their calculations?

It doesn't mean anything to "consider" a model if you don't do any calculations.

It's almost like they seem threatened by the alternative.

The EU is threatened by arithmetic. I don't think mainstream physics is scared of them.

 

[ferd burfle]

So where are their calculations?

It doesn't mean anything to "consider" a model if you don't do any calculations.

The EU is threatened by arithmetic. I don't think mainstream physics is scared of them.

I’m working on a screenplay for a movie about the EU proponents titled The Fear of All Sums. It’s a comedy, of course.

 

[jonesdave116]

The solar wind, as Alfven described (quoting earlier work from Schuster) is net neutral. And there is nobody who understands even basic astro and plasma physics who disagrees that it must be so. It is impossible for it not to be so. As should be obvious to anyone with a clue. One can only surmise, therefore, that those claiming otherwise do not have a clue. And, given that these claims only exist in the minds of unqualified laymen, and not in the scientific literature, they can be safely ignored in the same way that flat earth is ignored.

If the Sun is losing an excess of one charge over the other, how is it not charging up to the opposite charge? What stops it? How does it happen? Want to point us to a peer-reviewed paper?

Bumping the bolded part as it was predictably ignored.

Added to which it can be asked where are the gamma rays from the impossible fusion on the surface? Why aren't they there? Why are we here if such fusion was impossibly occurring?

Where are the incoming electrons that Scott requires? How are they getting past a magnetic field heading in the opposite direction?

All these questions cannot be answered by the adherents of the impossible electric sun woo.

 

[Sol88]

Key to understanding solar explosions boobtooob vid.

Did you see the jet?

 

[Sol88]

So where are their calculations?

It doesn't mean anything to "consider" a model if you don't do any calculations.



The EU is threatened by arithmetic. I don't think mainstream physics is scared of them.

Well there’s one.

Birkeland Currents: A Force-Free Field-Aligned Model

A “jet”?

 

[Ziggurat]

Well there’s one.

Notice what's missing from that paper: even a single calculated physical value for anything. The only comparison they ever make to real data is some vague visual similarities between pictures. I can do that too.



Not impressive.

 

[jonesdave116]

Well there’s one.



A “jet”?

And he screwed up the equations in that 'paper', as was discussed here and elsewhere. That is why it only exists in a predatory, non-peer-reviewed, pseudoscience rag.

 

[Sol88]

Notice what's missing from that paper: even a single calculated physical value for anything. The only comparison they ever make to real data is some vague visual similarities between pictures. I can do that too.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_11924c8a6a2f89a59.jpg[/qimg][qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_11924c8a6a50f25e0.jpg[/qimg]

Not impressive.

Vague similarities?

That’s why I read the whole couple pages dedicated to plasma is a gas… it’s not it plasma, of which there is a zoo of types.

Do you accept that mainstream, with the clarity of the correct mode/model of plasma instability being applied, will come to the realisation that the solar wind is far more complex than just being a quasi neutral zephyr?

Data, from a number of mission to various planets n moons, asteroids, comets(great solar plasma probes) and thru the suns plasma boundaries, looks pretty solid when it includes current driven plasma instabilities.

Or

Is all a bit confronting?

 

[jonesdave116]

Do you accept that mainstream, with the clarity of the correct mode/model of plasma instability being applied, will come to the realisation that the solar wind is far more complex than just being a quasi neutral zephyr?

Real scientists already know what the solar wind is, and what it contains. It is quasi-neutral at macroscopic scales. And has to be. As Alfven explained.
There is nothing proposed by EU non-scientists that anybody needs to take any notice of, as none of them have a clue about plasma physics, or even know what the solar wind is.

 

[Sol88]

And he screwed up the equations in that 'paper', as was discussed here and elsewhere. That is why it only exists in a predatory, non-peer-reviewed, pseudoscience rag.

No.

Scott hit the nail on the head… the hang up was here, as I recall;

One of the most extensive reviews of force-free currents in a cylindrical geometry by Botha & Evangelidis [25] con- tains several references to similar studies.

However, none of these investigators make the simplest assumptions: adopt a piece-wise linear approach, assume α to be any scalar value, and assume no variation of j or B in either the azimuthal or axial directions.

Such simplifications may not be justified on the solar surface, but are in deep space. Therefore, we derive here a simple solution that follows from this and carefully note the effect of the parameter α on the resulting model.

Scott Currents? Less turbulent plasmas.

Highly turbulent plasmas like the solar wind close to the stars, HH objects, AGN’s, quasars…, flux ropes seems the most common term used. Happy to call them Parker Currents. Seems these currents have not had time to get field aligned.

Birkeland current in planetary plasmaspheres.

ALL need an electric field.