Electric universe theories here.

[jonesdave116]

My thoughts (and the Electric Universe) exactly.

Except that the clown Scott wants the electrons to stay behind and the ions to leave! Therefore killing the Sun, and all of us! How is he maintaining the zero current condition, as Alfven says he must do? Give us one reason to conclude that Scott is not an eejit.

 

[steenkh]

Hi Sol88, you seem to be seeing Birkeland currents everywhere now. Could you please explain what exactly characterises a Birkeland current, so that we can find out for ourselves why you do so.

 

[jonesdave116]

Hi Sol88, you seem to be seeing Birkeland currents everywhere now. Could you please explain what exactly characterises a Birkeland current, so that we can find out for ourselves why you do so.

EU definition of Birkeland current;

Anything made of gas/ plasma that happens to be ~ filamentary/ tube like. Even when the filament is overwhelmingly cold and mostly neutral, such as much of the cosmic web. Or even if it is quasi-neutral along its length, such as a magnetic flux tube.

If it isn't a Birkeland current, then it is probably a double layer.

Stars are formed due to lightning bolts in molecular clouds that are ~ 1 part in 1-10 million ionised.

Electrons drift in to power the Sun against a magnetic field heading in the opposite direction at ~ 400 km/s.

Neutrinos are due to heavy element fusion on the surface of the Sun, where it is neither hot enough nor dense enough for any sort of fusion. Despite the fact that we know that ~ 99% of the neutrinos come from the first step in the p-p chain. And the gamma rays from which would not only be obvious as line emission, but would have long since rendered the planet uninhabitable.

What's not to believe?

 

[Sol88]

Hi Sol88, you seem to be seeing Birkeland currents everywhere now. Could you please explain what exactly characterises a Birkeland current, so that we can find out for ourselves why you do so.

Birkeland Currents: A Force-Free Field-Aligned Model

The physical properties of the resulting intricate magnetic field structure are described. The cause of its characteristic counter-rotation and counter-flows are identified.

Counter rotation. (Clock angle) and counter flows(switchbacks, nested dropping)

Just for instance.

Anything like this observed?

 

[jonesdave116]

Birkeland Currents: A Force-Free Field-Aligned Model




Counter rotation. (Clock angle) and counter flows(switchbacks, nested dropping)

Just for instance.

Anything like this observed?

Nope.

 

[jonesdave116]

Birkeland Currents: A Force-Free Field-Aligned Model




Counter rotation. (Clock angle) and counter flows(switchbacks, nested dropping)

Just for instance.

Anything like this observed?

Is that something to do with what Scott is selling? Nested droppings? Crap within crap? Lol.
And nested draping causes currents sheets that flow perpendicular to the magnetic field. I thought the loon Scott wanted Birkeland currents, which are field aligned?

However, you have already been told that, haven't you?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12896770&postcount=740

Just repeating the same crap within crap (nested droppings) is not going to make it come true!

 

[Sol88]

Pity it’s observed.

 

[Sol88]

Following on from jd116’s excellent paper...

The Electron Structure of the Solar Wind

Some models of the interplanetary electrical potential of the heliosphere predict that Tcore is a direct measure of the local electrical potential in the heliosphere. If so, then jumps seen in Tcore represent jumps in the electrical potential from flux tube to flux tube. This may imply that the interplanetary electrical potential (and its effect on the radial evolution away from the Sun of solar-wind ions and electrons) independently operates in each flux tube of the heliosphere.

The Sunward Electron Deficit: A Telltale Sign of the Sun’s Electric Potential

The nearly ubiquitous occurrence of the sunward deficit in the inner heliosphere suggests that we may need to reconsider the functional forms commonly used to represent electron distributions in this environment.

And from jd116’s perspective...

Electrons drift in to power the Sun against a magnetic field heading in the opposite direction at ~ 400 km/s.

Obviously, jd116 is misinformed.

Electric fields and electrons rule the roost.

The universe is electric.

 

[jonesdave116]

Pity it’s observed.

And has nothing to do with Birkeland currents. And nobody with a clue about plasma physics is claiming that it is. Unless you have the name of a plasma physicist for us? Thought not.

 

[jonesdave116]

Following on from jd116’s excellent paper...

The Electron Structure of the Solar Wind



The Sunward Electron Deficit: A Telltale Sign of the Sun’s Electric Potential



And from jd116’s perspective...


Obviously, jd116 is misinformed.

Electric fields and electrons rule the roost.

The universe is electric.

Lol. The electrons are not drifting into the Sun. That is impossible. They are not getting past a magnetic field headed in the opposite direction. As observed. Ask any plasma physicist you like. If the ions are going thataway >>>> so are the electrons. Basic physics. Maybe you should learn some?

 

[jonesdave116]

Obviously, jd116 is misinformed.

Nope, all the detections made in the solar wind for ~ 60 years tell us that the electrons and ions are heading out in the same direction. As they must. As Alfven explained. Still yet to see you point out where he was wrong.

 

[jonesdave116]

Some models of the interplanetary electrical potential of the heliosphere predict that Tcore is a direct measure of the local electrical potential in the heliosphere. If so, then jumps seen in Tcore represent jumps in the electrical potential from flux tube to flux tube. This may imply that the interplanetary electrical potential (and its effect on the radial evolution away from the Sun of solar-wind ions and electrons) independently operates in each flux tube of the heliosphere.

Guess you didn't read that far, eh?

 

[Sol88]

Tell me more about this mainstream electrical potential between the sun and the heliosphere, jd116!

An electric field centred on the sun...no way!

 

[jonesdave116]

Tell me more about this mainstream electrical potential between the sun and the heliosphere, jd116!

An electric field centred on the sun...no way!

I have already explained it to you in terms a 12 year old could understand, including within the last day! Seriously, how many times do I need to explain it before it sinks in? It isn't rocket science!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13996235&postcount=3732

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13996377&postcount=3757

 

[Sol88]

Yup. You were wrong.

The sun needs more electrons, it’s in the paper you linked too.

The electric sun.

 

[Sol88]

Yup. You were wrong.

The sun needs more electrons, it’s in the paper you linked too.

The electric sun.

 

[jonesdave116]

Yup. You were wrong.

The sun needs more electrons, it’s in the paper you linked too.

The electric sun.

Is a lie. Learn to read.

 

[jonesdave116]

Yup. You were wrong.

The sun needs more electrons, it’s in the paper you linked too.

The electric sun.

Lol! So you think 'sunward deficit' means the Sun is crying out for more electrons? Dear me. I am loathe to even try to explain this, because it is at the limits of my understanding. However, what I do understand is that they are talking about the expected outcome of the ambipolar field that arises to PRESERVE QUASI-NEUTRALITY.

You end up with a population of 'trapped' electrons. The do not have the oomph to get beyond the electric field, and are therefore 'reflected' back towards the Sun. Having got back towards the Sun, they are then sent back the other way by the magnetic mirror force;



From: Basics of the Solar Wind; Meyer-Vernet, N. (2007)

These are the sunward electrons. The paper then goes on to explain how and why they think they see this deficit, and that is beyond my pay grade. However, it has nothing to do with the solar wind not being quasi-neutral. They have already stated that it is, and that that is why the ambipolar field exists!

 

[Sol88]

The turbulent solar wind you mean?

The ones with Birkeland currents threaded thru it? The ones with the electron current running toward the sun nested with the ion current?

Or at least the ion current is the outer layer as per Don Scott’s model.

Really and all honesty, all I’ve read the mainstream have ignored...no wait that’s not quite correct. Have not been able to observe and therefore model them.

MHD is not the best it seems especially for electrons.

Also

If I recall correctly Volwerk had a dummy spit on the Rosetta mag data for lack of resolution.

You have had quite the few probes fly straight thru a Birkeland current.

Ulysses has been up there with the best.

Comets tails are a great example. The Rosetta RPC and Ulysses data are pretty bloody good.

Chuck in a bit of the Sun, Jupiter and Saturn probes data and its shop shut.

The solar wind is not some homogeneous quasi neutral “wind”.

It’s of course a turbulent plasma threaded with Birkeland currentS.

Only a complete numpty would think that. I’m sure it’s not what you thought, jd116.

 

[Sol88]

The turbulent solar wind you mean?

The ones with Birkeland currents threaded thru it? The ones with the electron current running toward the sun nested with the ion current?

Or at least the ion current is the outer layer as per Don Scott’s model.

Really and all honesty, all I’ve read the mainstream have ignored...no wait that’s not quite correct. Have not been able to observe and therefore model them.

MHD is not the best it seems especially for electrons.

Also

If I recall correctly Volwerk had a dummy spit on the Rosetta mag data for lack of resolution.

You have had quite the few probes fly straight thru a Birkeland current.

Ulysses has been up there with the best.

Comets tails are a great example. The Rosetta RPC and Ulysses data are pretty bloody good.

Chuck in a bit of the Sun, Jupiter and Saturn probes data and its shop shut.

The solar wind is not some homogeneous quasi neutral “wind”.

It’s of course a turbulent plasma threaded with Birkeland currentS.

Only a complete numpty would think that. I’m sure it’s not what you thought, jd116.