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Cont: Brexit: Now What? Turning it up to 11

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jeremyp said:
No it isn't. The EU is stronger with Britain in it because it's still a large economy and most of that economy is England. Our politicians don't gum up the works more than anybody else's...

... well they didn't pre-2016. It's been a bit of a ******** since then.
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That's extremely questionable given the entrenched economic irrationality in Britain.
 
jeremyp said:
It's the current British government that is not acting in good faith. In any scenario in which we are applying to join the EU, it would be a different government - probably a future Labour one - that would be applying.



Britain never gamed the system while it was still in the EU at least not to a greater extent than any of the other countries. Yes, we negotiated various opt outs and also the famous rebate - we won't get any of those back - but that wan't gaming the system.
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And then there will be elections again and the tories will be back in power.
With that whole ‘a government can’t be bound by a previous government’ mentality, how can the UK ever become trustworthy in this regard?
 
erwinl said:
And then there will be elections again and the tories will be back in power.
With that whole ‘a government can’t be bound by a previous government’ mentality, how can the UK ever become trustworthy in this regard?
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Probably, but this government (& the last two) seem to be trying to destroy the Conservative Party permanently. An outcome devoutly to be wished.
 
erwinl said:
And then there will be elections again and the tories will be back in power.
With that whole ‘a government can’t be bound by a previous government’ mentality, how can the UK ever become trustworthy in this regard?
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Quite: I've lived here pretty much all my life, bar around 6 months, and I don't trust most of the UK population...
 
The Don said:
Don't underestimate the English public's short memory. :mad:
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I don't, hence the "Probably", but optimistically something feels different this time. These grifters & charlatans don't provoke the strength of feeling that Thatcher for example did, but I think there's a level of quiet disgust at what they've done that reaches wider than ever before. The Conservatives have always got away with giving just enough away to just enough people (beyond their natural base) to gain & hold power, this time I think they've stolen too much from too many and allowed too many people to see their rapaciousness.

Even the more nationalistic, reactionary & racist are starting to say they'll never vote Tory again ( judging by certain family members).
 
erwinl said:
And then there will be elections again and the tories will be back in power.
With that whole ‘a government can’t be bound by a previous government’ mentality, how can the UK ever become trustworthy in this regard?
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The Tories won’t be coming back in power for many years.
 
jeremyp said:
The Tories won’t be coming back in power for many years.
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I think they have a non-negligible chance of winning the next election.:(

IMO it's a toss up for the one after that. Especially if Scotland gains independence in the meantime.
 
It's not exclusively down to Brexit, there are significant supply-chain issues, but Brexit isn't helping a struggling UK motor manufacturing industry.

The number of new cars made in the UK fell sharply again last year, sinking to its lowest level since 1956.

The drop marks a 10% fall from 2021, which itself was a historic low.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64399748

One of the key benefits of Brexit is that it would allow the government to support key industries. Ironically the SMMT is blaming EU state support - something allegedly forbidden under EU rules - for the UK's problems:

Firms are worried that the UK is falling behind the US and the EU when it comes to offering state aid to manufacturers.
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And what of the much-anticipated UK state support ?

Mr Hawes conceded the UK could be in the unenviable position of offering less support to crucial industries than we did before we left the EU.
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Shock horror ! Yet another Brexit promise which turned out to be a complete lie.
 
Darat said:
We'd also be bringing back Wales, Scotland & NI does that make it sound better?

I could see that as part of re-joining issues such as Gibraltar would have to be dealt with and that could prove tricky, don't forget UK folk or rather rich UK folk like the tax advantages of Gibraltar. Just ask an ex chancellor!
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I live about 30km from Gibraltar. There is a lot of tension building here in Spain (and the Greater EU) about an 'agreement' with the UK to incorporate Gibraltar into the Schengen area. The UK is now bickering about who would provide security at Gibraltar airport and seaport. The EU want to station Frontex or Spanish security personnel at the entry point but, of course, the UK see this as a sovereignty issue. This one will run and run.
Naturally, Spain still want Gibraltar back. That would put an end to the tax fiddles ... and see the departure of the many online gambling companies who are based there.
Anyway, Gibraltar is a ********. I've gone there twice in the 3 years I have lived here. Escaping the UK while it was still easy. Life here is pretty good if you avoid the 'expat' communities. Well, it's got a socialist-led government.
 
sinnikal said:
I live about 30km from Gibraltar. There is a lot of tension building here in Spain (and the Greater EU) about an 'agreement' with the UK to incorporate Gibraltar into the Schengen area. The UK is now bickering about who would provide security at Gibraltar airport and seaport. The EU want to station Frontex or Spanish security personnel at the entry point but, of course, the UK see this as a sovereignty issue. This one will run and run.
Naturally, Spain still want Gibraltar back. That would put an end to the tax fiddles ... and see the departure of the many online gambling companies who are based there.
Anyway, Gibraltar is a ********. I've gone there twice in the 3 years I have lived here. Escaping the UK while it was still easy. Life here is pretty good if you avoid the 'expat' communities. Well, it's got a socialist-led government.
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How would an independence referendum (from the UK) go? I recall they voted 98% to remain in the EU (to the extent they were in the EU). I guess they want to keep their tax advantageous status which they would lose if they fully joined Spain or independently joined the EU.
 
Basically Gibraltar wants to enjoy the way things were pre-Brexit. Occasionally the Spanish would devise some reason to make things difficult for cross-border traffic and cause a fair amount of disruption (all related to desiring Gib to be returned to Spain), but everyone knew it would only be temporary. the economy of the town right next to the border, La Linea de la Concepción, is pretty reliant on Gibraltar. There are a lot of Spanish cross-border workers.
Yes, Gibraltar voted massively against Brexit. They were ignored. Without the tax advantages there is no reason for the place to exist. It is massively overcrowded, nowhere to park cars and the beaches are ****. Shiny red postboxes though, and familiar looking policemen. Roads called Winston Churchill Avenue and the like. Union flags and British nosh.
 
jeremyp said:
No it isn't. The EU is stronger with Britain in it because it's still a large economy and most of that economy is England. Our politicians don't gum up the works more than anybody else's...

... well they didn't pre-2016. It's been a bit of a ******** since then.
Click to expand...

When the UK was in the EU (since Thatcher at least) tent all its leaders did was pee in everybody elses direction. The single market was pushed by Thatcher who lambasted it as soon as it came into being, the Eastern rapid expansion was pushed by Blair who spent the rest of his time moaning about the expansion's effect. Every time there was a spanner thrown into the works or reform stymied, it was the UK at the end of it.

Add all that to the oceans of bad blood the Tories generated and you've got an EU who've copped on that England's not worth it.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
When the UK was in the EU (since Thatcher at least) tent all its leaders did was pee in everybody elses direction. The single market was pushed by Thatcher who lambasted it as soon as it came into being, the Eastern rapid expansion was pushed by Blair who spent the rest of his time moaning about the expansion's effect. Every time there was a spanner thrown into the works or reform stymied, it was the UK at the end of it.

Add all that to the oceans of bad blood the Tories generated and you've got an EU who've copped on that England's not worth it.
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Britian.
 
Darat said:
We'd also be bringing back Wales, Scotland & NI does that make it sound better?

I could see that as part of re-joining issues such as Gibraltar would have to be dealt with and that could prove tricky, don't forget UK folk or rather rich UK folk like the tax advantages of Gibraltar. Just ask an ex chancellor!
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By the time Westminster will get around to realising the EU is a good idea Scotland will almost definitely be independent and Ireland reunited. So yeah, it'll be England asking to join.
 
The Don said:
I think they have a non-negligible chance of winning the next election.:(
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Labour is still at around 48%. Unless their support collapses, the Tories will be annihilated.
IMO it's a toss up for the one after that. Especially if Scotland gains independence in the meantime.
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It's a general pattern that governments last ten years or a little longer and then get voted out. The Tories are almost certain to be out of power for a decade or more once they lose.

I've got a hypothesis that when you lose, everybody associated with the losing government effectively loses their career. The incoming leader is therefore not likely to be first rate because if they were first rate, they would have been associated with the government that just lost. The useless incoming leader will prolong the agony for at least one election cycle just by being useless. The new leader will then be deposed and all his close associates will acquire the same stigma that the people who were in the government had.

Thus, each time there is a loss, the best people left are culled leaving worse dross and it requires a new generation coming through to halt the rot.

That's my theory, that is mine.
 
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