Cont: Brexit: Now What? Turning it up to 11

[catsmate]

No, you've got it all wrong. Brexit itself is brilliant, it's just been bungled. Nigel Farage was recently complaining about the brain drain of talent from The City to Milan. Apparently it wasn't down to the stupidity of Brexit but because the Tories didn't deliver the unicorns an moonbeams Brexit of his dreams.

For goodness sakes we held all the cards, how did we manage to play them so badly.

The EU was playing bridge, the UK was playing snap.
Badly.

 

[Lothian]

Wait, is this not exactly what we voted for?

 

[The Don]

Wait, is this not exactly what we voted for?

No, the Brexiteers were quite clear that leaving the EU would allow the UK to have all of the benefits of EU membership but with none of the obligations or responsibilities.

If only the Remoaners hadn't suggested that this was impossible then this is exactly the deal the UK would have got but having been alerted, the EU was able to cheat in the negotiations by:

1. Having a clear idea about what they wanted before they engaged in negotiations
2. Ensuring that there was broad agreement on their side about what they wanted
3. Sticking to their guns during the negotiations rather than recognising the UK's inherent superiority and acting accordingly
4. Actually working to implement the deal once it was agreed
5. Insisting that the UK adhere to the terms of the deal when it was always clear that the UK should be allowed to do whatever it chose

 

[Pixel42]

Wait, is this not exactly what we voted for?

It's exactly what I voted against, I can tell you that.

 

[catsmate]

EU-UK relations aren't great and won't improve soon, especially given the current UKGov's panderings.
And a clear majority of UKians want to rejoin the EU.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2023/0124/1350422-uk-eu-relations/

 

[The Don]

EU-UK relations aren't great and won't improve soon, especially given the current UKGov's panderings.
And a clear majority of UKians want to remain rejoin the EU.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2023/0124/1350422-uk-eu-relations/

But nothing can/will come of it because the two major parties are wedded to Brexit as a means to pander to the Red Wall.

Rejoining will of course remove a whole raft of vetoes and opt-outs that the UK enjoyed and the UK will have to move towards joining Schengen and the Euro.

 

[jeremyp]

But nothing can/will come of it because the two major parties are wedded to Brexit as a means to pander to the Red Wall.

Rejoining the EU is my number one political issue. Nobody gets my vote unless they are in favour of that. Basically, I have to vote Lib-Dem.

Rejoining will of course remove a whole raft of vetoes and opt-outs that the UK enjoyed and the UK will have to move towards joining Schengen and the Euro.

Other countries in Europe manage without the vetoes and opt-outs that we had. In fact, many seem to be doing quite well on it. I think Schengen is a great idea and there are loopholes that mean we don't have to actually do anything to join the Euro. See Sweden, for example. To join the Euro, you first have to be in the ERM for two years, but it's not compulsory to join the ERM, so Sweden has decided it never will. Besides, I think the UK could easily negotiate an opt out clause for the Euro (they could probably also do it for Schengen, but I don't want them to).

 

[catsmate]

But nothing can/will come of it because the two major parties are wedded to Brexit as a means to pander to the Red Wall.

Rejoining will of course remove a whole raft of vetoes and opt-outs that the UK enjoyed and the UK will have to move towards joining Schengen and the Euro.

I've fixed the Remain/Rejoin auto-correct error.

Why should the UK get preferential treatment form the EU? Other than the delusions of the reactionaries that is.

 

[catsmate]

Other countries in Europe manage without the vetoes and opt-outs that we had. In fact, many seem to be doing quite well on it. I think Schengen is a great idea and there are loopholes that mean we don't have to actually do anything to join the Euro. See Sweden, for example. To join the Euro, you first have to be in the ERM for two years, but it's not compulsory to join the ERM, so Sweden has decided it never will. Besides, I think the UK could easily negotiate an opt out clause for the Euro (they could probably also do it for Schengen, but I don't want them to).

The UK are special snowflakes, they want/demand special treatment.

 

[The Don]

I've fixed the Remain/Rejoin auto-correct error.

Why should the UK get preferential treatment form the EU? Other than the delusions of the reactionaries that is.

The UK shouldn't IMO, but I find it ironic that the terms under which the UK would rejoin the EU would be significantly different from the ones under which it was previously a member. Those terms would be "worse" from the perspective of people who thought that the UK had insufficient scope for unilateral action when we were EU members.

 

[jeremyp]

I've fixed the Remain/Rejoin auto-correct error.

Why should the UK get preferential treatment form the EU? Other than the delusions of the reactionaries that is.

The UK is still a relatively large economy. There's no doubt that the EU would prefer us in than out, so there is some latitude for negotiating the terms of entry.

That said, I'd be happy for the UK to rejoin on the standard terms. We ****** them about by leaving, we don't really deserve any special treatment. The only thing I don't like about the standard terms is the Euro adoption and that can be fudged.

 

[erwinl]

The UK is still a relatively large economy. There's no doubt that the EU would prefer us in than out, so there is some latitude for negotiating the terms of entry.

That said, I'd be happy for the UK to rejoin on the standard terms. We ****** them about by leaving, we don't really deserve any special treatment. The only thing I don't like about the standard terms is the Euro adoption and that can be fudged.

Of course the EU would prefer the UK to be a part of us. Strength in numbers and such.
But not enough to let the UK get away again with special UK clauses and the UK gaming the system.

The time, though, for special bespoke rules is gone. Sweden still has them, from back then and is smart enough to know they have good deal and want to keep it that way.
If you want in, you get in. With all that comes with it.

 

[jeremyp]

Of course the EU would prefer the UK to be a part of us. Strength in numbers and such.
But not enough to let the UK get away again with special UK clauses and the UK gaming the system.

The time, though, for special bespoke rules is gone. Sweden still has them, from back then and is smart enough to know they have good deal and want to keep it that way.
If you want in, you get in. With all that comes with it.

I think that’s a little bit naive. There’s always room for negotiation.

 

[The Don]

I think that’s a little bit naive. There’s always room for negotiation.

You're right, but looking at the post-Brexit trade deals that the UK has negotiated (as opposed to the EU trade deals that have just been rolled over) then IMO the UK would be best off just taking the terms offered by the EU rather than negotiating and ending up in an even worse position (if the Australia trade deal is anything to go by).

IMO the EU would go in with a clear understanding of the relative strengths of the parties' negotiating positions and act accordingly.

 

[erwinl]

I think that’s a little bit naive. There’s always room for negotiation.

Of course there's always some room for negotiation.

But as the UK has shown itself to be unreliable in keeping their treaty promises, I don't think there will be any giving towards the UK on any of the material issues concerning an eventual rejoining into the EU.
Maybe if the UK had shown itself to be trustworthy, it might have been. But alas. The UK has done its very best to be as unreliable as possible.

In other words. Answer me this, please.
Why would the EU accept an UK back into the union, give them bespoke exceptions and then let the UK game the system again and walk back on their promises (again)?

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

But nothing can/will come of it because the two major parties are wedded to Brexit as a means to pander to the Red Wall.

Rejoining will of course remove a whole raft of vetoes and opt-outs that the UK enjoyed and the UK will have to move towards joining Schengen and the Euro.

The other problem is, does the EU want England back? Even if there was a seacchange in UK politics on this issue overnight, you're probably looking at a generation before there's a chance of a rejoin applictation being favourably considered.

Without English politicians gumming up the works, the EU is in a stronger position.

 

[jeremyp]

Of course there's always some room for negotiation.

But as the UK has shown itself to be unreliable in keeping their treaty promises, I don't think there will be any giving towards the UK on any of the material issues concerning an eventual rejoining into the EU.

It's the current British government that is not acting in good faith. In any scenario in which we are applying to join the EU, it would be a different government - probably a future Labour one - that would be applying.

Why would the EU accept an UK back into the union, give them bespoke exceptions and then let the UK game the system again and walk back on their promises (again)?

Britain never gamed the system while it was still in the EU at least not to a greater extent than any of the other countries. Yes, we negotiated various opt outs and also the famous rebate - we won't get any of those back - but that wan't gaming the system.

 

[jeremyp]

The other problem is, does the EU want England back? Even if there was a seacchange in UK politics on this issue overnight, you're probably looking at a generation before there's a chance of a rejoin applictation being favourably considered.

Without English politicians gumming up the works, the EU is in a stronger position.

No it isn't. The EU is stronger with Britain in it because it's still a large economy and most of that economy is England. Our politicians don't gum up the works more than anybody else's...

... well they didn't pre-2016. It's been a bit of a ******** since then.

 

[Darat]

The other problem is, does the EU want England back? Even if there was a seacchange in UK politics on this issue overnight, you're probably looking at a generation before there's a chance of a rejoin applictation being favourably considered.

Without English politicians gumming up the works, the EU is in a stronger position.

We'd also be bringing back Wales, Scotland & NI does that make it sound better?

I could see that as part of re-joining issues such as Gibraltar would have to be dealt with and that could prove tricky, don't forget UK folk or rather rich UK folk like the tax advantages of Gibraltar. Just ask an ex chancellor!

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

It's the current British government that is not acting in good faith. In any scenario in which we are applying to join the EU, it would be a different government - probably a future Labour one - that would be applying.

I think it highly unlikely that the negotiations to rejoin the EU could be started, concluded, and ratified in a single parliament, I think it would need the support of both major parties to have any chance of success

Britain never gamed the system while it was still in the EU at least not to a greater extent than any of the other countries. Yes, we negotiated various opt outs and also the famous rebate - we won't get any of those back - but that wasn't gaming the system.

Yeah, Britain didn't take the piss until it did. But now it has so I hope the EU ensures there are very strong guarantees in place before negotiating re-entry for the UK.