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Split Thread Conspiracy theories about unconventional usage of notation

As the hull is technically that watertight part of a vessel that is designed to lie beneath the water level, I fail to see what this has to do with the issue of a vessel at a 45° list to starboard and at what point does it lose equilibrium to capsize.

Perhaps take your sophistry question to the person who introduced the non-sequitur, or are we moving into the realms of 'all parts of the boat matter'?


You fail to see trees when the forest interferes. You have also not answered my question. I have submitted it to the person who made a false claim regarding its usage, even in the most technical of terms (for which you have offered no authoritative support), and incidentally, also does not meet conventional standards of its definition.

From - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hull


2 a : the frame or body of a ship or boat exclusive of masts, yards, sails, and rigging
b : the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (such as an airship or tank)


Despite your childish attempts to deflect, even below the waterline, onboard a seafaring vessel, the port and starboard nomenclature is standard terminology. Do you finally admit that?
 
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes, then you are hardly going to be in a position to tell me I am wrong.

I expect you or someone else will now go to Grammerly via Google to let me know the 'correct' way to express time is to state hours, mins and secs.

I have heard of the prime notation of time. I am very much aware that " is not, and has never been, minutes. It's seconds.
 
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes, then you are hardly going to be in a position to tell me I am wrong.

I've seen the quote and double-quote occasionally used for time**, but never in any of the technical papers I've ever read. And I've never seen a double-quote used for minutes, only seconds.

** I didn't know it was called primes notation until this thread.
 
Apropos of nothing

This came up on my feed last night

 
If you are one of the 99% of posters here who has never in their life heard of time notation by primes...

Hyperbolic exaggeration distracting from the actual point. Like others here I'm well aware of ' and " being used for minutes and seconds. It's actually fairly common in audio recording as a compact notation for track lengths, although less common than it once was.

The real point is that " is used for seconds. Never for minutes. Observe there are two strokes in the character and the word used is the ordinal number "second". It is not a coincidence that these are both references to the number 2.

There's another colloquial use of number two, and we seem to be getting an awful lot of that rather than a simple recognition that you made a small mistake. But you appear determined to turn this molehill into the Andes rather than recognise you were wrong.
 
You fail to see trees when the forest interferes. You have also not answered my question. I have submitted it to the person who made a false claim regarding its usage, even in the most technical of terms (for which you have offered no authoritative support), and incidentally, also does not meet conventional standards of its definition.

From - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hull





Despite your childish attempts to deflect, even below the waterline, onboard a seafaring vessel, the port and starboard nomenclature is standard terminology. Do you finally admit that?

As I advised you, the issue of the hull is a non sequitur and as such qualifies as a logical fallacy. Therefore, I see no reason to discuss the hull any further unless you can explain what it has to do with a vessel listing 45° to starboard and the point at which it will almost certainly capsize.
 
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.

Imagine if our old friend Claudius Ptolemy were to be resurrected and he joined the ISF. He'd be trolled [back] to death with his partes minutae primae first minute and his partes minutae secundae giving us "second minute," except his 'minutes' and 'seconds' were not to do with timekeeping but to do with circles and astronomy. However, the terminology stuck for minutes and seconds as we know them today along with his trigonometry. Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes, and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience. I get that my experience is not everybody's experience. It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain.
 
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.

Imagine if our old friend Claudius Ptolemy were to be resurrected and he joined the ISF. He'd be trolled [back] to death with his partes minutae primae first minute and his partes minutae secundae giving us "second minute," except his 'minutes' and 'seconds' were not to do with timekeeping but to do with circles and astronomy. However, the terminology stuck for minutes and seconds as we know them today along with his trigonometry. Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes, and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience. I get that my experience is not everybody's experience. It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain.


1) Everyone is well aware that primes have been used to notate time units. We also know that the use of primes for time is now considered arcane and is essentially never used in science or engineering.

2) it’s simply a 100% falsehood to claim that ‘ has ever been (correctly) used to notate hours and/or that “ has ever been (correctly) used to notate minutes. You’re either misremembering what you were taught, or you were taught incorrectly (rather unlikely) or you’re not telling the truth.

To hammer in once again: if primes are ever used to notate time, the single prime ‘ ALWAYS notates minutes (and always has done, without exception), and the double prime “ ALWAYS notates seconds (and always has done, without exception).
 
I get that my experience is not everybody's experience.

I note that you have failed to come up with a single supporting example of what you claim was a commonplace in your experience. The idea that we are simply unfamiliar with your wrong notation because it went to a different school is genuinely hilarious.
 
It can be 20 seconds. Think of it this way (hopefully, we'll get there in the end!)

Feet = '

Inches= "

Minutes = '

Seconds = "

OR, alternatively:

Hours = '

Minutes = "

As long as the context is clear I don't see the problem. We know M/S Estonia sank within 35". Hard to see how that can be seen as depth of water or seconds.

Happy Christmas, All. Keep smiling!

Apart from your unconventional usage of single quotes for hours,, have you any evidence of anyone else using it?

Obviously you use it.
 
The problem with most of what you call my 'debate opponents' (excluding yourself, I have to admit) have is that they have trouble knowing the difference between their being ignorant of a thing and mistaking that ignorance as proof that the thing does not exist.

No, the problem is not other people. The problem is you. You spout all sorts of ignorant nonsense and then double-down on it when caught. Telling us you'll happily let yourself be corrected is a laugh. You behave immaturely when people try to correct you, and you rarely if ever think you might be wrong about something.
 
I am amused that people are now claiming they knew all about the duration of time notations after all, rather than be thought ignorant.

Because many of them did. But because you used the system wrong, no one could tell what you were doing. Don't confuse people trying to figure out what you're ignorantly doing with people not understanding how the world works.

Yes, some people were amused by what could have been interpreted as thirty-five inches. That's because that's pretty much the only modern use for ″.

And yes, we can see you trying to say you're still somehow smarter than everyone else. That seems to be what it's all about for you.

Whilst it is true that technically speaking ' and " correlate with minutes and seconds as we know them today, it is also true that they have been used for hours and minutes...

You claim this. You've been asked to show evidence that anyone else besides you has ever used it this way. You cannot produce any, so you don't get to say it's true.

Further, you refuse to answer how this could possibly function as a standard under the rules you propose. You ignored examples of when context would fail to disambiguate the statement. You admitted that the feet-and-inches marks worked in absence of yards because the meaning of the marks never changes. Your claim cannot be true.

...and I would even say the latter was more informally common than the former, from my experience.

And we're back to you just making stuff up. You can't produce any evidence that it was ever used that way, much less that it was more common.

I get that my experience is not everybody's experience.

You can't show that your claimed experience is anyone's experience. And the claim that it was informally acceptable at your school wasn't even your first story. At first you claimed using ″ only for seconds was some U.S. standard that was interloping upon your "correct" usage. You claimed it was a universal standard that couldn't be misinterpreted under any circumstances. The only reason you're now emphasizing "in my experience" is to make it harder for others to refute you.

The whole point of using symbols to represent something is that the symbols have to be the experience of more than one person, and ideally the agreed-upon experience of all involved parties. Watching you flail around trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth isn't nearly as amusing as watching you undermine the whole notion of convention in order to keep from having to say, "Oops, sorry, I thought ″ meant minutes."

It has been interesting to note that the majority of people had no idea it was to do with a sexagesimal system so hopefully the topic will not all have been in vain.

Are you literally trying to claim that "the majority" of people didn't know there were 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in a degree or hour? Are you literally so vain as to believe you taught them that in this thread?

And no, primes notation is not inexorably tied to sexagesimal divisions. The two are dissimilar concepts.
 
Vixen, I challenge you to find any quote in this thread of someone specifically saying that they were unaware that prime notation could be used for time.

I certainly never said such a thing. To claim that others have stated such is either a lie, or reveals a lack of ability to read for understanding.

What everyone HAS said is that your usage of it is non-standard.

You claimed it was a standard that you were taught at school.
When called out on that you reeled it back to say that it was a format you and others used in school and were never corrected on, even hinting that you were aware that it was non-standard but that your teachers seemed not to care.

Unfortunately for you there are other people in this thread, myself included, who were taught the same syllabus as you, at about the same time as you, and in my case even in a school under the same educational authority as you. I trained as a science and maths teacher under that very same system in schools in the very same educational authority.

Your usage of prime notation was NEVER standard.

A good maths or science teacher would NEVER have let it go unremarked.
 
I note that you have failed to come up with a single supporting example of what you claim was a commonplace in your experience. The idea that we are simply unfamiliar with your wrong notation because it went to a different school is genuinely hilarious.

Genuinely, especially when she describes an upper-crust, traditional school that I imagine would have been more of a stickler about getting such things right. Especially since my first encounter with the notation as a teenager was the blue-blooded wet-bobs recording their rowing times.

But the equivocation is also genuinely hilarious. "There can be no reasonable confusion over what I'm trying to say," versus "We did it that way at my school even though other schools may have done it differently." The more she tries to narrow the usage to her experience alone, the less she can expect anyone else to figure out what she was trying to say. She's trying to come up with a story no one can refute, not a story that actually tells the truth. She's aiming for doubt, hoping to be given the benefit of it. But the more vernacular the usage, the less it can be expected to convey the proper meaning to others. In other words, the more wrong it is.
 
Vixen, I challenge you to find any quote in this thread of someone specifically saying that they were unaware that prime notation could be used for time.

She appears to be conflating what people say they were taught with what people say they knew.

Your usage of prime notation was NEVER standard.

A good maths or science teacher would NEVER have let it go unremarked.

She even backpedaled on that. At first it was okay to use ″ for minutes of time as long as the examiner knew what you meant. Then it was only okay to use it in "notes" and such, but not in an assignment to be handed in. It's easy to believe you. Your story is consistent. She changes hers as it is refuted from day to day, trying to stay one step ahead of her critics.

And I agree with you that a science teacher or examiner would most certainly not have accepted such an arbitrary reuse of a standardized notation. As I mentioned, a big part of science in general is following standards for units and notation. I mentioned it's the first section of the materials for the engineer's professional licensing exam in the U.S. But more importantly, it's just the way trained scientists think. It's second nature to do it the one right way. For someone to say, "That was perfectly allowable at my school," is, for me, tantamount to revealing that one wasn't educated in the sciences. The proffered practice is so very antithetical to a foundational principle of all science.

And because it's so difficult to imagine that a competent school allowed that, it's much easier to imagine that "We were allowed to do it that way at my school" is a desperate ploy to avoid the impression that Vixen simply doesn't know what she's talking about.
 
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Unfortunately for you there are other people in this thread, myself included, who were taught the same syllabus as you, at about the same time as you,


Vixen's education seems to have been a bit earlier than mine; Middlesex County Council was abolished in 1965.
 

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