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Split Thread Conspiracy theories about unconventional usage of notation

Are you unable to subtract 45 from 135, or do you simply not know what "perpendicular" means?

Do have a look here to discover the perpendicular:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpendicular

The deck is perpendicular to the sides of the ship as I stated but you are utterly determined to take the micky out of me which you wouldn't do if it were anybody else.
 
Nope, that's not what I said. Perhaps you'd benefit from going back to read what I actually did say before ascribing quotes to me?






I most certainly know enough about a) prime notation and how it's used, and b) internationally-universal preferred notation for units of time, to consider myself confidently proficient in those matters, yes. And compared to your woeful (and continuing) ignorance, I'd definitely qualify myself as relatively expert.


You did; you claimed you had never in your life come across anyone expressing duration of time in minutes.
 
Do have a look here to discover the perpendicular:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpendicular

The deck is perpendicular to the sides of the ship as I stated but you are utterly determined to take the micky out of me which you wouldn't do if it were anybody else.


From your link:
In elementary geometry, two geometric objects are perpendicular if they intersect at a right angle (90 degrees or π/2 radians).


What is 135 minus 45?
 
Re: The highlighted nonsense:

6ft = 6 feet
2' = 2 feet
⅛" = 1 eighth of an inch

So 6ft, 2' ⅛ " is 6 feet, 2 feet and an eighth of an inch. Which is a rather bizarre way to communicate a length or distance. It's definitely not a correct or coherent way of stating 6 feet, 2⅛ inches.

Not only is there no need to state it, it shouldn't be stated at all because it's incoherent nonsense.

I was highlighting JayUtah's claim that you must at the first digit state the unit, for example, 'gals'. I pointed out, not so because we don't do that for feet and inches.

Clear now? Thank you for confirming that it would not be correct to write 6ft, 2' ⅛ ", as I was pointing out.
 
That should have read 0'35".

No. You had ample time earlier to correct it.

Anyway nobody puts in the zero, as in 0'6"; one just says 6".

6″ always means six seconds. 0′6″ never means "zero hours and six minutes." The properly unambiguous notation for six seconds would be 0h 0′ 6″, and 0h 6′ for six minutes. The prime never means hours in time notation.

Just because you have never heard of duration of time being expressed in terms of 35" that doesn't make it wrong.

Just because you wrote 35″ intending it to mean "thirty-five minutes" doesn't make it right. Your absurd efforts to defend your usage doesn't mean you were differently educated.
 
From your link:


What is 135 minus 45?

Er 90°.


Take a look at the diagram on the wiki page. Imagine points A and B represent the deck of the ship. A' and B' represent the sides of the ship, port and starboard. The line P to P' represents the metacentre at 90° . Now can you picture that when the boat lists, just a small angle is needed before it loses all bouyancy.

Are you going to concur that I have never claimed port was perpendicular to starboard?
 
Er 90°.


Take a look at the diagram on the wiki page. Imagine points A and B represent the deck of the ship. A' and B' represent the sides of the ship, port and starboard. The line P to P' represents the metacentre at 90° . Now can you picture that when the boat lists, just a small angle is needed before it loses all bouyancy.


Which diagram are you referring to? The one showing how to construct a perpendicular to the line AB through P?

Are you going to concur that I have never claimed port was perpendicular to starboard?


You claimed that they were at 45 degrees and 135 degrees. As you have just conceded, that means that they are at 90 degrees to each other.
 
Which diagram are you referring to? The one showing how to construct a perpendicular to the line AB through P?




You claimed that they were at 45 degrees and 135 degrees. As you have just conceded, that means that they are at 90 degrees to each other.

A ship is not flat like a raft. The sides are not perpendicular to each other because a ship is more of a semi-circular shape; not a straight line, which would be 180°, anyway, and nor a right-angled V-shape.
 
A ship is not flat like a raft. The sides are not perpendicular to each other because a ship is more of a semi-circular shape; not a straight line, which would be 180°, anyway, and nor a right-angled V-shape.


We're not talking about the sides of the ship, we're talking about the directions "port" and "starboard".
 
I was highlighting JayUtah's claim that you must at the first digit state the unit, for example, 'gals'. I pointed out, not so because we don't do that for feet and inches.

I made no such statement. I said that stating the base unit is one way of establishing the context for how to reckon the prime-notated quantities, because the canonical base unit uniquely determines what kind of extent--linear distance, volume, angles--is being measured. The kind of extent determines what the cuts mean. The kind of extent may be established in other ways. When some other information establishes that context, any zero quantities may be omitted so long as the primes-notated quantities stay the same. Because of this, under no circumstances can the meanings of the cuts change.

The yard is the standard for English length not by conventional or common usage, but by international agreement. That it has been supplanted in practice by the foot does not allow for your inventive attempt to restate the prescribed notation.

When the extent is length (however that context was established) the notation xy″ always and forever means "x feet y inches." No primes-noted quantity ever need be normalized. A linear extent of 47‴ may be kept as "forty-seven lignes," or may be normalized to 3″ 11‴, "three inches and 11 lignes." Narrower conventions such as EES require normalization--in this case to 0.3264 ft. But just because we prefer feet over yards doesn't mean the foot becomes the new canonical base unit.

Note I do not say 0.3264′. This is because when ft is (properly) used to indicate feet, the proper abbreviation for inches becomes in. We don't use primes notation in EES, and the foot is the canonical distance measurement in EES.

You can use "yd, ft, in" units consistently. You can use "yd, ′, ″" consistently. But x ft y′ is pure nonsense. This is because the first-cut in linear measurement must derive from the canonical base unit. ′ means feet. It can never mean inches. It cannot be (correctly) made to indicate inches just because a nonstandard base unit has been wrongly notated.
 
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Er, it is an exact parallel with the demand one puts the term hr after hour. Or in your case, demanding we write 'min' to show minutes.


Er, no.

JesseCuster has already explained your mistake to you, but I'll do so again if it'll help (it probably won't, if precedent is anything to go by...):

You wrote: 6ft, 2' ⅛ "

But

1) When using prime notation on imperial units of length, the single prime always - without exception - applies to the number of feet; and

2) You've split the notation for the 2 and the ⅛, whereas in the concept you're trying to express, they both apply to the same unit (here, inches: two and one-eighth inches).

What you've written above, as JesseCuster pointed out, is actually:

6 feet, 2 feet, ⅛ inch (which equates to 8 feet, ⅛ inch)


(Not to mention your mistake in using two different notification systems within the same number, which never happens...)
 
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I..... don't even know where to start with this one.

Indeed, my goal in this thread is to get Vixen to admit she made a mistake, instead of "admitting" to nothing more errant than using the acceptable notation apparently common in her part of the kingdom: specifically that part of the U.K. situated entirely between her ears. Just a simple, "Whoops, I meant to indicate minutes but I used the wrong symbol--sorry!"

Failing that, I plan to be entertained further by her increasingly hubristic and absurd attempts to save face. There is nothing more amusing than a person committed to tying themselves in knots.
 
Er 90°.


Take a look at the diagram on the wiki page. Imagine points A and B represent the deck of the ship. A' and B' represent the sides of the ship, port and starboard. The line P to P' represents the metacentre at 90° . Now can you picture that when the boat lists, just a small angle is needed before it loses all bouyancy.

Are you going to concur that I have never claimed port was perpendicular to starboard?


Holy crap.

That diagram is showing - and is ONLY showing - the method of drawing (on a flat surface, eg a piece of paper) a line which is exactly perpendicular to a given reference line, where the perpendicular passes through the point P, using only a straight edge and a compass.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with ships, ships' hull shapes, or the port and starboard of maritime usage.

This is getting beyond ridiculous.
 
Indeed, my goal in this thread is to get Vixen to admit she made a mistake, instead of "admitting" to nothing more errant than using the acceptable notation apparently common in her part of the kingdom: specifically that part of the U.K. situated entirely between her ears. Just a simple, "Whoops, I meant to indicate minutes but I used the wrong symbol--sorry!"

Failing that, I plan to be entertained further by her increasingly hubristic and absurd attempts to save face. There is nothing more amusing than a person committed to tying themselves in knots.


Indeed. Or tying themselves in mph x 1.151 ;)
 
Er, it is an exact parallel with the demand one puts the term hr after hour. Or in your case, demanding we write 'min' to show minutes.

No. The canonical base unit of time is the hour. In primes notation it is abbreviated h, not hr. Informally, min can indicate minutes and sec can indicate seconds. Writing min in primes notation does not redefine the base unit for time and redistribute the cuts. ′ is minutes in a time context. It is never anything else. ″ is seconds in a time context. It is never anything else. This holds regardless of what other quantities and their labels are missing. The fact that it holds regardless is what lets you omit the missing values and their labels without ambiguity.

The SI and EES base unit of time is seconds, abbreviated s.

There are plenty of other formal and informal conventions, such as colon-delimited notation for HMS, and 00h 00m 00s that (wrongly) lets you indicate minutes with the m normally reserved to indicate a meter of distance.

No, 0 min 5′ is meaningless.
 
You wrote: 6ft, 2' ⅛ "

First, I wage a perpetual battle against cramming the textual units typographically up against the figures. There should always be space between the figure and the unit. This is not an SI standard, but it is a U.S. NIST standard. At least this example properly omits the period after the unit abbreviation. The standard abbreviation for feet is ft and not ft. as it is sometimes rendered informally. But I still often lose the battle when the dimensioned quantity is adjectival; e.g., "There was a 5ft gap in the bridge deck."

1) When using prime notation on imperial units of length, the single prime always - without exception - applies to the number of feet;

Correct. One may write 6 ft 2 in most properly. When using the textual abbreviation for feet, it's most proper to use the textual abbreviation also for inches. When using primes notation, the only textual abbreviation that should properly appear is for the canonical base unit.

2) You've split the notation for the 2 and the ⅛, whereas in the concept you're trying to express, they both apply to the same unit (here, inches: two and one-eighth inches).

Indeed, that's just the height of absurdity. Two different symbols trying to represent the same units in the same expression isn't the least corrected by the feeble, "That's just the way I've always done it." It's just wrong, fully and completely.

We American engineers still occasionally have to work in English units for legacy designs, and because our common parts are very often still provided in round units by English reckoning. Some electronic pin spacing is still ten to the inch, for which I profusely apologize to the rest of the world.

When that happens, the unit most commonly used for mechanical drawing is the inch. We'll go to hundreds of inches where necessary, and it's decimalized as needed. We never use fractions. In common American engineering slang, a "mil" is a thousandth of an inch.

American carpenters (really the whole building trade) still uses binary subdivision fractions of an inch, and still makes extensive use of primes notation. However, when the inches are subdivided, it's common to add a dash between the integral inches and the inch fragment. This helps especially when dimensions are written by hand.

So if you're going to use eighths of an inch and primes notation, the correct version would be 6′ 2-⅛″, read "six feet, two and one-eighth inches." And you would put a zero in the integrals place before the dash: 3′ 0-½″.

What you've written above, as JesseCuster pointed out, is actually:

6 feet, 2 feet, ⅛ inch (which equates to 8 feet, ⅛ inch)

Not really. It would more accurate to say what she wrote simply doesn't make sense. There's really no right way to read wrong notation.
 
We're not talking about the sides of the ship, we're talking about the directions "port" and "starboard".

No, we were talking about a physical ship, not directions. In any case port and starboard are separated by the hull so n'er the twain shall meet, let alone be perpendicular to each other.
 

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