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Cont: The Russian invasion of Ukraine part 6

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Dave Rogers said:
Given that the Russian government appears to be in the process of passing a law absolving their soldiers of any and all crimes in Ukraine that Russia deems to have furthered its interests, it seems that the answer is "You're right, it wouldn't."

Dave
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But one thing you have to take into account is that, if Russia was in full control of Ukraine, from Lviv to Kharkiv, the concept of "furthering Russian interests" would acquire a completely different meaning.

It would then be in the interest of the Russian leaders to prove to the world that they can take care of the population, better than the previous Ukrainian government, in order to try to improve their public image.
 
Michel H said:
But one thing you have to take into account is that, if Russia was in full control of Ukraine, from Lviv to Kharkiv, the concept of "furthering Russian interests" would acquire a completely different meaning.
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As usual, you've hypothesised a situation in which, in your imagination, Russia might choose not to act like the criminal organisation that it currently is, and pretended this absolves it of its current crimes. The absence of logic involved is quite striking.

Dave
 
Michel H said:
But one thing you have to take into account is that, if Russia was in full control of Ukraine, from Lviv to Kharkiv, the concept of "furthering Russian interests" would acquire a completely different meaning.

It would then be in the interest of the Russian leaders to prove to the world that they can take care of the population, better than the previous Ukrainian government, in order to try to improve their public image.
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Bwahahahahaha!

No.

Russians treat their ethnic minorities like crap. The fact that these minorities are Russian citizens doesn't really matter. There's a difference between russkiye and rossiyane, and Ukrainians would mostly not be russkiye.

And Putin doesn't give a crap what you think would be in his interests to prove to anyone, or what you would think of him. Hell, you already love him and he's not doing any of that stuff.
 
Ziggurat said:
Bwahahahahaha!

No.

Russians treat their ethnic minorities like crap. The fact that these minorities are Russian citizens doesn't really matter. There's a difference between russkiye and rossiyane, and Ukrainians would mostly not be russkiye.

And Putin doesn't give a crap what you think would be in his interests to prove to anyone, or what you would think of him. Hell, you already love him and he's not doing any of that stuff.
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Not exactly, I have criticized his recent invasion of Ukraine several times.

I do think, however, that he is being treated unfairly, and that he needs to be given a fair option to get out of this conflict, which would make him neither a total winner, nor a total loser.

I don't think unfortunately he's being given such an option right now, and this is probably why we have military violence.

For example, I just read Henry Kissinger's peace proposal (https://www.rt.com/news/568389-kissinger-ukraine-peace-proposal/) and I found it biased against Russia.
 
Lots of posts to AAH with the potential for more action against several of these. This thread is headed for moderated status, creating more work and less discussion. Please stick to the topic of the thread (the current invasion of Ukraine) and stop with the personal attacks.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: sarge
 
Michel H said:
You said:

I am not sure I understand your question very well, unfortunately.

I am just asking and suggesting Ukraine makes very minor territorial concessions to appease Russia. A kind of repeat of the Munich Agreement, but done right this time, without having Western powers declaring war in a careless way.

I don't think Ukraine should give the whole Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts to Russia, just the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics as they existed prior to the war (this corresponds to about half of the said oblasts).
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I know what you're suggesting. I want to know why Ukraine would accept those terms considering the territory was annexed from them not given over.
 
Michel H said:
Not exactly, I have criticized his recent invasion of Ukraine several times.

I do think, however, that he is being treated unfairly,
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Why, exactly, do you think that someone who started an invasion of a neighbouring state should be treated "fairly"? He's a warmongering fascist! He's decided he wants more land for Russia so he's invaded a neighbour.

You do realise that the invasion started when he sent troops into Crimea and Donbass illegally right?
 
Michel H said:
But one thing you have to take into account is that, if Russia was in full control of Ukraine, from Lviv to Kharkiv, the concept of "furthering Russian interests" would acquire a completely different meaning.

It would then be in the interest of the Russian leaders to prove to the world that they can take care of the population, better than the previous Ukrainian government, in order to try to improve their public image.
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If Russia cared about it's public image it would have stayed out of Ukraine completely. Putin considers "The West" to be a bunch of degenerate nazis - he doesn't care a monkey's crutchpiece what "The West" thinks. As far as the rest of the planet is concerned, Putin seems to think he will gain ever more support from the "Have Nots" in proportion to both his ruthlesness and the amount of disturbance he can cause to "The West".
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I know what you're suggesting. I want to know why Ukraine would accept those terms considering the territory was annexed from them not given over.
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I believe it would be very much in the interest of Ukraine to accept those terms because this might end this war which is so painful to them (think about the strikes on the energy infrastructure, for example), and because they would recover all of the territory conquered from them by Russia since February 24.

So I think, this is a good deal for Ukraine, and it may also protect all of us from a risk of nuclear war.

From a democratic viewpoint, it seems that Crimea and the two people's republics (Donetsk and Luhansk) are pro-Russian, so the democratic principles are winning too.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Why, exactly, do you think that someone who started an invasion of a neighbouring state should be treated "fairly"? He's a warmongering fascist! He's decided he wants more land for Russia so he's invaded a neighbour.

You do realise that the invasion started when he sent troops into Crimea and Donbass illegally right?
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I believe Putin sent some troops there in 2014 mostly to protect the local, pro-Russian population during a civil war in Ukraine, so it's not like when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for example.
 
Michel H said:
I believe Putin sent some troops there in 2014 mostly to protect the local, pro-Russian population during a civil war in Ukraine, so it's not like when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for example.
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What attack took place on Russian territory by terrorists harbored by Ukraine?
 
Craig4 said:
What attack took place on Russian territory by terrorists harbored by Ukraine?
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None, as far as I know.

In April 2014, armed pro-Russian separatists seized government buildings and declared the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) as independent states, which received no international recognition prior to 2022. Ukraine and others viewed them as Russian puppet states[1][2][3] and as terrorist organisations.[12] This sparked the War in Donbas, part of the wider Russo-Ukrainian War which also saw the Russian occupation and annexation of Crimea. The Donetsk and Luhansk People's Militias occupied almost half of the two oblasts and were at war with the Ukrainian military for the next eight years.
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(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic).

The attacks by Ukraine took place in Donetsk and Luhansk, Kiev sent troops to crush the uprising. Then Vladimir decided to help the breakaway states.
 
sackett said:
but quite difficult to remedy.

Lets try it this way: Who else do you believe?
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I don't necessarily believe the president of Russia.

What I said was:
Michel H said:
I believe Putin sent some troops there in 2014 mostly to protect the local, pro-Russian population during a civil war in Ukraine, so it's not like when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for example.
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