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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VIII

HSienzant said:
I've used a different train analogy -- that their locomotive has jumped the tracks and is careening downhill through a forest -- crashing through trees with all that momentum but not going anywhere in particular.
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I like it, and it is probably applicable to most cases. I like to think mine helps explain how intellectual laziness can sometimes result in an otherwise logical person ending up in the wrong neighborhood.
 
HSienzant said:
JFK's brain, anyone?

Although the ultimate fate of his brain is most likely re-interred with the body or disposed of by RFK at sea, it's not definitely known what happened, so of course CTs like to mention it's still missing (without of course mentioning the last person known to have possession is Angie Novello, RFK's secretary).

More than likely, RFK himself took it from Novello and disposed of it or had it reinterred with the body, but CTs don't like to mention that as it destroys the conspiracy angle they like to allude to or hint at.
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The safe money is on RFK reinterring it with the body when they moved it to its current location under the eternal flame. When one considers how the autopsy went down, the rush to get JFK out of Dallas, and so on it seems that whatever Jackie wanted - Jackie got.
 
Anything interesting or unexpected in the latest release of declassified materials?
 
Hans said:
Anything interesting or unexpected in the latest release of declassified materials?
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The conspiracy has finally been revealed! - or something similar will be claimed by a random conspiracy theorist. They will support that conclusion one of two ways:
1. Such-and-such a memo says this-and-that, which *must* mean a conspiracy (in their opinion).
2. There is no evidence of conspiracy in the latest batch of declassified materials, which must mean they've been sanitized to hide evidence of conspiracy.

Perfectly logical. Perfectly circular.
 
It will take a while to read through them all, but there is serious gold to be found here.

Link to National Archives 2022 JFK Record dump:

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2022

The first pages are from 1963-1964, in the heat of the investigation, full of FBI and CIA memos.

Right on Page one is this baby:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10004-10199.pdf

This is the first CIA Mexico City write-up of their account of Oswald in Mexico City. Unlike the other, real-time Oswald/MexCity Station memo, this one reveals that they not only notified the FBI about Oswald visiting the Soviet Embassy, but they also notified the State Department, and Department of Naval Intelligence. In this memo, the CIA grouses about how the FBI did nothing with the information.

The memo details their phone-tapping operation of the Soviet Embassy, which was run without the knowledge of the Mexican Government, who had their own tapping system of the embassy in place. The CIA notes that the Mexicans sat on their recording of Oswald until after the assassination. The CIA admits they somehow missed photographing Oswald's visit to the embassy, as they state they photograph everyone coming and going.

Interesting snapshot of a CIA field station's day-to-day activities.

I'll post more as they come along.
 
Axxman300 said:
It will take a while to read through them all, but there is serious gold to be found here.

Link to National Archives 2022 JFK Record dump:

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2022

The first pages are from 1963-1964, in the heat of the investigation, full of FBI and CIA memos.

Right on Page one is this baby:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10004-10199.pdf

This is the first CIA Mexico City write-up of their account of Oswald in Mexico City. Unlike the other, real-time Oswald/MexCity Station memo, this one reveals that they not only notified the FBI about Oswald visiting the Soviet Embassy, but they also notified the State Department, and Department of Naval Intelligence. In this memo, the CIA grouses about how the FBI did nothing with the information.

The memo details their phone-tapping operation of the Soviet Embassy, which was run without the knowledge of the Mexican Government, who had their own tapping system of the embassy in place. The CIA notes that the Mexicans sat on their recording of Oswald until after the assassination. The CIA admits they somehow missed photographing Oswald's visit to the embassy, as they state they photograph everyone coming and going.

Interesting snapshot of a CIA field station's day-to-day activities.

I'll post more as they come along.
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I'm tempted to say its deva view all over, again.
 
HSienzant said:
The conspiracy has finally been revealed! - or something similar will be claimed by a random conspiracy theorist. They will support that conclusion one of two ways:
1. Such-and-such a memo says this-and-that, which *must* mean a conspiracy (in their opinion).
2. There is no evidence of conspiracy in the latest batch of declassified materials, which must mean they've been sanitized to hide evidence of conspiracy.

Perfectly logical. Perfectly circular.
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Door #3: What'd you expect? They are still hiding all the good stuff:
https://twitter.com/jeffersonmorley/status/1603557856745250819
 
bknight said:
I'm tempted to say its deva view all over, again.
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All this does is fill in the many blanks regarding the Warren Commission investigation, and subsequent investigations. The Mexico City CIA Station material has been off-limits for fifty years. Now we get access to everything. Historians and History-Buffs now have a worm's-eye view of the CIA and FBI at the height of the Cold War, post Cuban Missile Crisis. We now have full context behind the CIA's stonewalling of the Warren Commission, and the HSCA.

In the CIA memo I linked to, the station actually investigated the Oswald-Kostikov connection, and determined he was not a KGB asset based on the reasons they list in their report. The CIA reported that in those Soviet phone calls they monitored, the Russians are quoted as saying, "Oswald has no friends in Cuba". So in this one memo we learn the Mexico City Station (at least) did their due diligence on Lee Oswald, and established he had no Soviet or Cuban connections. The other documents we've seen show that the CIA desperately wanted to link him to Castro, and in 1963/64 they certainly could have manufactured evidence to this end, and invaded Cuba by 1965. But they didn't. The CIA played it straight, and worked the evidence.
 
Axxman300 said:
All this does is fill in the many blanks regarding the Warren Commission investigation, and subsequent investigations. The Mexico City CIA Station material has been off-limits for fifty years. Now we get access to everything. Historians and History-Buffs now have a worm's-eye view of the CIA and FBI at the height of the Cold War, post Cuban Missile Crisis. We now have full context behind the CIA's stonewalling of the Warren Commission, and the HSCA.

In the CIA memo I linked to, the station actually investigated the Oswald-Kostikov connection, and determined he was not a KGB asset based on the reasons they list in their report. The CIA reported that in those Soviet phone calls they monitored, the Russians are quoted as saying, "Oswald has no friends in Cuba". So in this one memo we learn the Mexico City Station (at least) did their due diligence on Lee Oswald, and established he had no Soviet or Cuban connections. The other documents we've seen show that the CIA desperately wanted to link him to Castro, and in 1963/64 they certainly could have manufactured evidence to this end, and invaded Cuba by 1965. But they didn't. The CIA played it straight, and worked the evidence.
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Michael Shermer's take on the latest release:
https://michaelshermer.substack.com..._id=91244614&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email
 
Thank you gentlemen for all the info on that new release. 30 years ago I'd be reading it but now - meh!
 
Axxman300 said:
All this does is fill in the many blanks regarding the Warren Commission investigation, and subsequent investigations. The Mexico City CIA Station material has been off-limits for fifty years. Now we get access to everything. Historians and History-Buffs now have a worm's-eye view of the CIA and FBI at the height of the Cold War, post Cuban Missile Crisis. We now have full context behind the CIA's stonewalling of the Warren Commission, and the HSCA.

In the CIA memo I linked to, the station actually investigated the Oswald-Kostikov connection, and determined he was not a KGB asset based on the reasons they list in their report. The CIA reported that in those Soviet phone calls they monitored, the Russians are quoted as saying, "Oswald has no friends in Cuba". So in this one memo we learn the Mexico City Station (at least) did their due diligence on Lee Oswald, and established he had no Soviet or Cuban connections. The other documents we've seen show that the CIA desperately wanted to link him to Castro, and in 1963/64 they certainly could have manufactured evidence to this end, and invaded Cuba by 1965. But they didn't. The CIA played it straight, and worked the evidence.
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What i meant was one arm of the feds sleeping at the wheel.
 
HSienzant said:
Michael Shermer's take on the latest release:
https://michaelshermer.substack.com..._id=91244614&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email
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What I'm getting out of this latest info-dump is just how good some investigative journalists have been in uncovering the CIA's activities in Central and South America during this time frame. There are a couple of Operation Mongoose files which reveal more depth to the project, but have long been alleged by good investigative historians. However, as of now, other than JFK getting shot, none of the allegations of the CTists have ever been proven to be true as they state them.

Just to recap the document release in full, here's what they reveal:

1. The FBI and CIA wanted to link Oswald to a conspiracy, and worked overtime searching for evidence to do this. They came up empty.

2. The CIA's Mexico City Station recorded Oswald, knew who he was, and reported his visit to the Soviet and Cuban embassies with his intention to defect (again) to the FBI, State Department, and Naval Intelligence.[None of whom alerted the Secret Service to Oswald's presence in Dallas ahead of JFK's Texas visit]

3. The FBI continued to investigate tips received about the assassination well into the 1970s.

4. Many JFK Assassination CTs originated at Langley, based on a Mexico City memo listing dozens of rumors collected from foreign dignitaries, and military officers - not one of which was true (and the CIA did investigate). The rumors from this memo would become hushed cocktail-hour conversations between CIA employees and journalist friends. From there these rumors would fuel a CT industry still alive today.

The files undermine the main CT claim of a government cover-up of a conspiracy to kill JFK, as the government wanted the assassination to be the result of a conspiracy.
 
Okay, this memo from DCIA, Richard Helms is a prime example of the CIA declining to declassify a piece of information for the Warren Commission:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10009-10224.pdf

It discusses the subject of the CIA's presence in Australia, and how declassifying a piece of information would reveal the CIA Canberra Station in Melbourne, and goes on to list a number of prickly questions which would inevitably follow.

Did Australia know the CIA had a station? Sure. But there would be complications for both governments if made "official".

This is a great example of the "why" and "how" behind the veil being wrapped so tight on key points of seemingly worthless information.
 
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This one is a CIA audit done for their New Orleans operation as a result of Jim Garrison's "investigation" into the assassination:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10012-10018.pdf

Dated April, 1967, it provides background, and their wariness about Garrison. And it lists names of CIA employees in the New Orlean's area, and what they did. Again, this is Cold War history gold.:thumbsup:
 
Axxman300 said:
These are a pair of CIA reports on potential suspects in the assassination other than Oswald:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10021-10019.pdf

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10021-10004.pdf

What they show is that the CIA was not interested in framing Lee Oswald, but hoping to link Castro to the assassination. This undermines all of the JFK-CTs.
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Undermines them? No, it rips the carpet, the underlay the floor and the foundations out from under them.
 
Axxman300 said:
Oh man, this one's epic:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10057-10270.pdf

This is the CIA Inspector General's full report on the Agency's mission to kill Fidel Castro. It's all here. OMG.

Real history is so much more exiting than BS CTs.
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Well this is the first IA document I've read and it is filled with "does (not)remember" etc.. I'm guessing this because very little was written. One comment was "he doesn't remember how he got the box of cigars".

Deny, deny, or don't remember.
 
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bknight said:
Well this is the first IA document I've read and it is filled with "does (not)remember" etc.. I'm guessing this because very little was written. One comment was "he doesn't remember how he got the box of cigars".

Deny, deny, or don't remember.
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If you don't write it down, they can't prosecute you later. :D
 
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