Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
Looks like she's also back to feigning confusion about how many people Svensson actually saved.
ETA: I would say "again" rather than "still". Welcome to fringe reset!
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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V
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Looks like she's also back to feigning confusion about how many people Svensson actually saved.
ETA: I would say "again" rather than "still". Welcome to fringe reset!
JesseCuster
Master Poster
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Vixen's modus operandi is to make the same erroneous false claims repeatedly until it is repeatedly explained in the simplest terms that she is wrong about what she said, after which she will sometimes admit her error, only to apparently forget the correct facts, and go back to the original error.
Hey Vixen, did you ever find your source for what you claimed was in Captain Andersson's contract about keeping his schedule? An excellent researcher such as you surely should have that information available, yet, like many other claims you've made, you've been asked multiple times, and have simply handwaved away requests saying that you will post the source once you find it.
You even made the bizarre response when asked how you knew what was in his contract that there was no way of knowing what was in his contract because it's not public. Which was framed in a way that made the request for the information seem foolish, when it was you that claimed to know what was in his contract.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Vixen what is the symbol for denoting minutes of time?
Like if you wanted to write "I'll be there in 50 minutes" but didn't want to use the word or a shortening o it what symbol would you use? i.e. 10 grams = 10g ; 20 percent = 20% etc
Like if you wanted to write "I'll be there in 50 minutes" but didn't want to use the word or a shortening o it what symbol would you use? i.e. 10 grams = 10g ; 20 percent = 20% etc
Oh loooky, you get it from a heavily CT website. Surprise.
A "man overboard" is NOT a valid reason to use a PAN PAN call, and the "no danger to the vessel itself" part is flat out wrong. Which leads me to question to reliability of the rest of it. The whole "the statement from memory of one person outweighs four others, and the comm logs, and the recordings" thing (in that case I would assume it was said person who got it wrong), and spending paragraphs widely speculating and details and assuming them accurate in the complete absence of evidence they occurred at all does not strike me as solid reasoning. That the whole thing is based off of a "Mayday received 30 minutes earlier" based on an anonymous phone caller to an unsolved mysteries TV show, with no verification it's not a prankster or hoaxer, things which are rather known to exist in these types of things, assuming the TV show didn't just make it up themselves, which also happens. (About that "believing your TV thing...").
Also, a Swedish operations log would be in Swedish time as a matter of course, so I suspect a time zone differences not accounted for are a source of much confusion. For example, a helicopter flight from Sweden that would take 40 minutes to arrive with the takeoff time recorded in Swedish time (as it would be as a matter of course at the base) with the arrival in Estonia local time would then appear to be be an 1:40 long flight. And an ETA of 3:03 or so in a Swedish operations log would be equivalent to an ETA of 4:03 at the site of the wreck.
Also, I don't know how Q 64 could be on an early secret run, since there apparently isn't a Q 64. There's a Y 64, which kind of matters since "Q" designated Swedish search and rescue helicopters that naturally would be the first called up and were properly trained and equipped, and "Y" designated military anti-submarine warfare helicopter that happened to have (largely defective as it turned out) winches for search and rescue as well, and did not even have rescue men as regular members of the crew. Naturally the "Y" helicopters would only be called up in an extreme emergency, and the need for them didn't seem to be realized until the first helicopters were already on the scene, so a delay is natural.
And you still can't get the difference between helicopter, pilot and rescue man. Sigh.
A "man overboard" is NOT a valid reason to use a PAN PAN call, and the "no danger to the vessel itself" part is flat out wrong. Which leads me to question to reliability of the rest of it. The whole "the statement from memory of one person outweighs four others, and the comm logs, and the recordings" thing (in that case I would assume it was said person who got it wrong), and spending paragraphs widely speculating and details and assuming them accurate in the complete absence of evidence they occurred at all does not strike me as solid reasoning. That the whole thing is based off of a "Mayday received 30 minutes earlier" based on an anonymous phone caller to an unsolved mysteries TV show, with no verification it's not a prankster or hoaxer, things which are rather known to exist in these types of things, assuming the TV show didn't just make it up themselves, which also happens. (About that "believing your TV thing...").
Also, a Swedish operations log would be in Swedish time as a matter of course, so I suspect a time zone differences not accounted for are a source of much confusion. For example, a helicopter flight from Sweden that would take 40 minutes to arrive with the takeoff time recorded in Swedish time (as it would be as a matter of course at the base) with the arrival in Estonia local time would then appear to be be an 1:40 long flight. And an ETA of 3:03 or so in a Swedish operations log would be equivalent to an ETA of 4:03 at the site of the wreck.
Also, I don't know how Q 64 could be on an early secret run, since there apparently isn't a Q 64. There's a Y 64, which kind of matters since "Q" designated Swedish search and rescue helicopters that naturally would be the first called up and were properly trained and equipped, and "Y" designated military anti-submarine warfare helicopter that happened to have (largely defective as it turned out) winches for search and rescue as well, and did not even have rescue men as regular members of the crew. Naturally the "Y" helicopters would only be called up in an extreme emergency, and the need for them didn't seem to be realized until the first helicopters were already on the scene, so a delay is natural.
And you still can't get the difference between helicopter, pilot and rescue man. Sigh.
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
Are you sure about that?
Pretty sure, anyway. PAN PAN is for a vessel in moderate trouble but not to the "send all help" level of a MAYDAY.
lobosrul5
Philosopher
Man-overboard recovery
In a man overboard situation, a pan-pan call on VHF makes other nearby vessels aware of the situation and ensures that they keep a lookout, avoid coming too close, avoid excessive wake or otherwise interfering. It also alerts them that the recovery vessel is manoeuvring for urgent life-saving, and therefore may not manoeuvre in accordance with International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS). In a more critical situation – the recovery vessel has lost sight of the person overboard, the person overboard is unconscious, there is a danger of hypothermia, or other grave risk to life – a mayday call is more appropriate, so that other nearby vessels can help rather than keep clear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
So basically, Pan-Pan if you want other vessels to stay clear, and Mayday if you want them to help.
Umm... The link says a PAN-PAN is for urgent problem (which could include man overboard - wrong about that it seems) but not as serious as a MAYDAY (immanent danger to life or the vessel). Usually doesn't mean "stay clear" though in itself, that would depending on the problem that should be specified in the radio message right afterwards. So Vixen's link claiming that a PAN-PAN can be used for a man overboard isn't wrong about that. Which does nothing for its many other obvious issues.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Wikipedia is not the whole story here. In U.S. usage, pan-pan is still the appropriate first call for man-overboard. You can always upgrade a pan-pan to a mayday, but you can't do the reverse. According to much of the rest of the world, mayday is now the appropriate first call for man-overboard. But the U.S.C.G. certifications still haven't changed, and mandate a pan-pan only for a first man-overboard call. Back in the 1990s, much of the rest of the world agreed: pan-pan for a first man-overboard call, unless the judgment of the on-scene commanders warranted a mayday. Heavy seas and the risk of hypothermia would be a justification.
LondonJohn
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Having said that though, if the seas have any height at all, and if the person overboard is wearing ordinary drab clothing (as opposed to, say, a bright orange survival suit), it's real needle-in-the-haystack time - no matter how many nearby vessels or aircraft might respond to a distress call.....
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
This is really the motivation behind the rest of the world upgrading to mayday. U.S. sailors are still taught differently, which leads to some disputes and debates. But back in the 1990s the pan-pan call was still the international standard for the first man-overboard call. That said, everything you write above is absolutely true for the MV Estonia. Many people in the water, at night, not dressed for survival or visibiltiy, cold temperatures, and heavy seas. That's a guaranteed mayday.
And here I thought that a Mayday was reserved for "the ship's going down/is going to be going down soon/have a fire we can't control/run aground on the rocks/going to have to abandon ship now/soon for some other reason or without rapid help the ship will be lost."
lobosrul5
Philosopher
That, I am almost certain, is because your muscles tend to lock up in very cold water and you will drown before hypothermia sets in. So a lifejacket will give you longer. That, or you just go into shock upon hitting the water.
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
A suddenly said:
...
Reformed Offlian
Master Poster
I always thought they should change the call to Bruce Springsteen's "I'm Goin' Down"
junkshop
Otto's Favourite
To anyone who has recently discovered this thread:
Please read the earlier parts. When you do you will realise that the misunderstandings/errors/outright lies posted by some/a poster here have been addressed/disproven/debunked/rightly ridiculed over and over again.
Until and unless any new evidence comes to light, there is nothing more to say.
Please read the earlier parts. When you do you will realise that the misunderstandings/errors/outright lies posted by some/a poster
Until and unless any new evidence comes to light, there is nothing more to say.
Amen
Amen
Apparently the interim report is expected out late January? Also there's a squabble over funds from the Estonian side - investigation says they need more funds that were apparently agreed on for the rest of what they're going to do, Finance Minister says you have enough for right now, and -apparently due to a current ongoing change of government- the Finance Minister says that at this time bypassing the usual budgeting process is not appropriate. Hopefully once the political stuff is done the funds will be given.
catsmate
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It's rather less than the standard AIRSAVE loadout too.
But these days satellite positioning and communications mean that civil vessels can expect rapid assistance.
Usually.....
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