Cont: The Russian invasion of Ukraine part 6

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Michel H said:
Podolyak (Zelensky's advisor) has tweeted again:

(https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1602217583658389506).

This led to the following replies:

(https://twitter.com/PeteJDS/status/1602304354383548417)


(https://twitter.com/QoqoBulos/status/1602329947758120960)

The massive financial support provided by the US, European Union and UK is probably partly used to pay such individuals.
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Ukraine, with continued support from the West, should be able to successfully expel Russian invaders and squatters from their territory. All it will take to rebuild what Russia destroys is money, and there will be money available, because the West is fully aware that they must accept Ukraine into their fold for any hope of peaceful stability in the area. So Podolyak is correct.

Putin thought the West would be more apathetic toward his adventures in Ukraine, but obviously he was wrong, and it appears he cannot win.
 
SpitfireIX said:
This is a false analogy. First, Russia is not the Soviet Union. Second, despite your attempt to minimize the significance, the Soviet Union received an enormous amount of lend-lease assistance from the US and the UK. Third, Russia's economy and military-industrial complex are being significantly degraded by Western sanctions. Fourth, modern weapons require much longer lead times and more complex inputs than their WWII counterparts. Finally, Stalin had a much more extensive and effective repression apparatus than Putin has.
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Six: in 1941-45, the Soviet Union was facing an existential threat from Nazi Germany. Their people had the choice to fight, or surrender and face virtual annihilation. In 2022, they can stop fighting and that would do nothing but improve the lives of ordinary Russians. In other words, their motivation and morale, was vastly different during WW2 than it is now.
 
Michel H said:
I believe Ukraine is fundamentally handicapped by the fact they are trying (but not with great success) to conquer (Russian-speaking) territories which have voted to join Russia (Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk).

This is a fundamental moral weakness which cannot be compensated by the US-supplied HIMARS rocket launchers.
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You choose to believe worthless Russian lies about their pretence of seeking the views of the people in the areas they have invaded. And you use that nonsensical belief to try to justify your wish for Russia to be allowed to keep what it has grabbed by force.

You are simultaneously so terrified of the scary Russian monster that you wish to appease it, yet oddly you also feel the need to diminish the achievements of their victim (who has kicked the monster's butt back for mile after mile after mile) calling it "not very successful". I see you continue your weaselly misuse of "Russian speaking" to falsely imply it means a Ukrainian who speaks that language will be pro-Russian. This is still false.

Your disgusting choice of the word "conquer" to describe Ukrainian liberation of parts of its country from invaders is as contemptible as it is absurd.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Six: in 1941-45, the Soviet Union was facing an existential threat from Nazi Germany. Their people had the choice to fight, or surrender and face virtual annihilation. In 2022, they can stop fighting and that would do nothing but improve the lives of ordinary Russians. In other words, their motivation and morale, was vastly different during WW2 than it is now.
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There is some common sense in what you wrote here, lobosrul5, but you should not forget that the Russians have been made angry by "sanctions" since 2014, the cutting-off of fresh water supply to Crimea through the North Crimean Canal, and shelling of Donetsk by Ukrainian forces.
 
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Michel H said:
I meant Podolyak, of course.

I didn't see any "Russian troll".
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Ah. I misunderstood. I thought the fact you chose to post those replies meant they were the "individuals" you meant.

And if you managed to select and post those replies without detecting Russian trolls, I think we may have touched on another element of your problem.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Ah. I misunderstood. I thought the fact you chose to post those replies meant they were the "individuals" you meant.

And if you managed to select and post those replies without detecting Russian trolls, I think we may have touched on another element of your problem.
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I believe I quoted only very high quality replies (there were many others, though).
 
Michel H said:
... you should not forget that the Russians have been made angry
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You should not forget that the Ukrainians have been made angry.

Why is your view of Putin's war entirely fixated on whether or not the Russians are angry?

It appears you simply want to give aggressors everything they could wish for in the forlorn hope they may be satisfied and avoid becoming angry.
 
Michel H said:
There is some common sense in what you wrote here, lobosrul5, but you should not forget that the Russians have been made angry by "sanctions" since 2014, the cutting-off of fresh water supply to Crimea through the North Crimean Canal, and shelling of Donetsk by Ukrainian forces.
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Illegally annex a region... get mad that they don't want to supply that region anymore.

This would be like the US annexing Newfoundland and then getting angry at Canada for not shipping us iron ore from Thunder Bay.

Russia logic and logic of their supporters, will never make any sense to me.
 
Ziggurat said:
Political opposition to Putin can't gain traction, because mostly people don't care.
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Quibble - I suspect that it's more that the people feel powerless and endangered by expressing opposition, rather than don't care. That's not to say that there isn't a fair bit of don't care, too, of course, but that much of it's motivated by powerlessness and threat.
 
I have seen some incredibly twisted thinking around here, but the Pro Putin Anti Ukraine crap in the last few pages of this thread takes the cake.
 
dudalb said:
I have seen some incredibly twisted thinking around here, but the Pro Putin Anti Ukraine crap in the last few pages of this thread takes the cake.
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Really? Micheal_H's defense of a fascist dictatorship has been pretty consistent throughout this thread.

It's a really fascinating example of 1984 doublespeak

Freedom of choice = voting at gunpoint
Democracy = dictatorship
Aggression = peace
Defense = aggression

etc etc
 
It's pretty amazing how low an opinion Michel H has of Russians and Russian leadership. According to him, they're basically animals. Incapable of reason. Devoid of conscience. Lacking all responsibility for their actions. The onus is necessarily on everyone else to manage their moods and cope with their irrational outbursts.

The real question is why, having established that they are literally inhuman monsters bent on insane violence against humanity, does Michel H prize their wellbeing and wish them success in their endeavors.

The solution to a rabid dog in your neighborhood is well-known and widely accepted. Michel H wants to have it both ways: He wants us to ask no more of Russia than we would ask of a rabid dog, but he wants us to give to Russia everything we'd give to a rational human being.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Illegally annex a region... get mad that they don't want to supply that region anymore.

This would be like the US annexing Newfoundland and then getting angry at Canada for not shipping us iron ore from Thunder Bay.

Russia logic and logic of their supporters, will never make any sense to me.
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Let's not forget that Russia is a signatory on the Budapest Memorandum, from 1994, which legally forbids Russia from infringing Ukraine borders.

Russia illegally invaded Crimea in 2014 and annexed it. Since 2014 they have been illegally occupying Ukraine's land.

Sanctions on Russia will prevent them from going into full war time production, in any event, the Russian self loading tank turrets are an engineering nightmare, even if they could produce more of them, they lose the entire crew every time one pops, in fact, they are becoming an internet meme.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/30/russian-tank-turret-blast-jack-in-the-box/

"The Russians have known about this for 31 years — you have to say they’ve just chosen not to deal with it" - From the article

Of course the turret situation is made worse by the corruption in Russia, where the explosive reactive armor that is supposed to protect the tanks from hits, does not contain any explosives, it was skimped out by corrupt armor manufacturers who shipped reactive armor casings with dummy explosives inside.
 
I think at this point we should all agree that the Budapest memorandum wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, both in terms of Russia's willingness to abide by it and in terms of everyone else's willingness to enforce it.

Ukraine needs to join a real alliance, with real obligations for mutual defense. And by real I don't mean idealistic "international law" legal, but "actually ratified as a matter of national law by the legislatures of its member states" legal.

You can say that what Russia is doing right now is illegal, but the truth is that Russia has nine tenths of the law on its side already.
 
Steve said:
Defending the indefensible frequently results in some very warped and irrational thought processes.
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My first encounter with Michael H was back a couple of years ago when California had those horrible wildfires,where a whole town was destrpyed, an dhe suggested the answer was for every town in California to build a moat around it. That most of the danger was in hilly and mountinous terrain seemed to pass him by, or maybe he thought Califorina was as flat as Belgium..he has just gotten worse.
 
dudalb said:
My first encounter with Michael H was back a couple of years ago when California had those horrible wildfires,where a whole town was destrpyed, an dhe suggested the answer was for every town in California to build a moat around it. That most of the danger was in hilly and mountinous terrain seemed to pass him by, or maybe he thought Califorina was as flat as Belgium..he has just gotten worse.
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What, thats crazy talk! California needs to send out a million workers (at their expense!) to rake up all the leaves in federally owned forests.
 
I don't want to give Russia anything is asks for outside of their dead, they can have them back if they were to claim them.
Nothing else.
They deserve nothing but utter defeat.
They should leave Ukraine, including that which they illegally occupied in 2014.
There is zero justification for their actions.
ZERO.
Putin should die a horrifyingly prolonged painful death.
 
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