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The Supernatural Part II

I have no advice for you. Stop denying the truth. Wait

This doesn't constitute an answer. A post that denies your intent to address what others have said is why people rightly accuse you of not answering them. The fact alone that you responded to the post, if only to dismiss it, does not mean you are participating in the debate of your claims.
 
Hello
Please tell me the verse and surah documenting this in the "Qur'an" so that I can check and answer.

This is from the Hadith and are not the Hadith's part of your Quran? This is authentic Sahih from Al-Bukhari:

https://hadeethenc.com/en/browse/hadith/8869

Therefore, whoever is decreed to be among the prosperous, Allah will lead him to do the deeds of the prosperous, and whoever is decreed to be among the wretched, Allah will lead him to do the deeds of the wretched.
 
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Hello, dear philosopher
See, I answered all the questions to the best of my knowledge. I have answered when I have time. But fellow members refuse to accept my answers. Therefore, it is not my fault. Meanwhile, I tell the truth with logic and science. Therefore, there is no problem with my answers to the questions. This is not difficult to understand.
But regarding the scientific facts mentioned in the Qur'an, I have already said that: God has told the modern scientific facts in the Qur'an in the seventh century (I have written many examples in this regard for you in this topic), but extensive scientific experiments and research are needed to prove it. He left it to humans. The Quran and all holy books are not a scientific experiment. Rather, they are guide books for human happiness. But he has also mentioned a lot about modern science.
Again, an example of modern science in the Qur'an, which was discovered in the last century:
1. God mentioned and said in Surah 56, Ayah 75, that the birth place of the stars is the white space holes. فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ 2. 2. In Surah 53:1, God refers to space black holes as well as the signs of the resurrection and the end of the universe.(Space black holes are the place of collapse and destruction of stars. which is mentioned in this verse.) وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَىAll the verses of the Qur'an are knowledge. It only refers to science. Especially to modern science. But he left the discoveries and experiments to humans. The task of God and the Qur'an is not scientific experiments. Rather, it refers to modern science so that people can find motivation and discover and prove it. The Qur'an and all the holy books of the prophets are for the guidance and happiness of man.
This fact can never be denied.
The efforts of you infidels to deny the truth of the existence of God, the Qur'an and the prophets are futile.


I did not ask you about any of the above.

I asked if you care that your beliefs are actually true?

I asked you why you insisted it was true to say Noah was 900 years old?

I asked you how a 900 year old Noah could ever be what you call your "philosophical logic & science"?

The only thing you said above that is relevant is that you just admitted that your source of evidence is a 1500 year old holy book of miracles ... you had claimed that your approach is always "philosophy, logic and science" ... I asked what sources of evidence you had used to arrive at your beliefs ...

... and what you just told us above is that your source for proving the Quran, is ... just the Quran!

Perhaps you did not understand the clear questions. Here they all are again -

I don't know what you mean by "going to the sidelines", but Jay just mentioned the fact that you don't seem to reply, acknowledge or respond to people here who ask you questions that you cannot comfortably answer. And I notice that you never reply to my questions now ... does that mean you are "running to the sidelines" when I ask you to engage in a conversion to honestly examine why none of the hundreds of thousands of real scientific research papers report any of the evidence you have claimed for God in the Quran?

You do not have a comfortable answer for that do you?

Your only truthful answer would be to admit that published science entirely rejects and denies your claim of science in the Quran ... why can't you make a clear admission of that to everyone here?

Here is a different question which atheists often put to theists -

- Q : do you care about what is actually true?

- Q : is it important to you that your professed beliefs are actually true?

- Q : what method do you use to decide if your beliefs are true?

- Q : are you using genuine evidence for your beliefs, and where did you get that evidence from?

- Q : are you getting it from 2000 year-old holy books, written by uneducated men of that time?

- Q : are you getting it from Islamic fundamentalist I'Jazz preachers & writers like Maurice Bucaille and Dr Zakir Naik?

Q : you are not getting it from science are you, because none of the hundreds of thousands of scientific research studies agree with you at all.

- Q : you are claiming science in the Quran, thats 99% of all your claims here, but 100% of all science rejects all of your claims – there is zero evidence of God revealing any science in a Quran … why can't you make a properly clear admission of that for everyone here?


You have been saying that you are logical and that you use a philosophy of logic and science ... but far back in this thread you spent several pages insisting that Noah (he of the Arc) certainly lived to an age of over 900 years.

- Q : do you care that your beliefs are actually true?

- Q : on what basis do you think it's actually true that Noah could have lived for 900 years?

Science and medicine have shown how it's almost impossible for any human person to live much beyond about 130 years (and 130 would be highly exceptional anyway) - the human body cannot survive for hundreds of years ...

... Q - so how can you claim that it is logical for you to believe that Noah was 900 years old?

Q : why do you believe Noah was 900 years old?

Q : where did you get the belief that Noah was 900 years old, did you get that from a holy book?

Q : how did you test that to see if that belief of 900 years is true?

Q : what evidence did you use to decide Noah was 900 years old?

Q : what sort of "logic & philosophy" told you to believe that Noah was 900 years old?

Q : again, modern science totally disagrees with your belief doesn't it?


Q : DO YOU CARE WHETHER YOUR BELIEFS ARE TRUE??

Q : WHAT SOURCES OF EVIDENCE DO YOU USE TO CHECK SCIENTIFICALLY PUBLISHED "FACTS"?
 
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I have studied more than you in this field.

This is a proof that you can't be debated with. This statement is childish. You don't know me to say this. But I don't need to tell you where I came from. You're not worth for parting that information here. Besides at the end of debating Quran all I get is death threats from devout muslims. And I know they follow Allah's ethics.

I just wanted to help you bro. I hope you'll pull out of this one day.
 
1. God mentioned and said in Surah 56, Ayah 75, that the birth place of the stars is the white space holes.


Just out of interest here are the most established translations of Surah 56:75

https://myislam.org/surah-waqiah/ay...ovision your denial!&text=(Fala!,, `I swear.”'

SURAH WAQIAH AYAT 75 (56:75 QURAN) WITH TAFSIR
west⠀Prev Ayat
Next Ayat⠀east
Surah Waqi’ah >> Currently viewing Surah Waqi’ah Ayat 75 (56:75)
SURAH WAQI’AH AYAT 75 IN ARABIC TEXT
فَلَآ أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَٰقِعِ ٱلنُّجُومِ
Falaa uqsimu bimaawaa qi’innujoom

ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Here you can read various translations of verse 75

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Then I swear by the setting of the stars,
YUSUF ALI Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
ABUL ALA MAUDUDI No! I swear by the positions of the stars
MUHSIN KHAN So I swear by Mawaqi (setting or the mansions, etc.) of the stars (they traverse).
PICKTHALL Nay, I swear by the places of the stars
DR. GHALI Then no! I swear by the sites of the stars
ABDEL HALEEM I swear by the positions of the stars-
No "White Holes", black holes or any other holes there.
 
Hayderian and all muslims are forced to believe (because they started out with the wrong foot, that is believing without sufficiently questioning) that Allah "sent" Quran a few thousand years after the earlier "divine revelations" and corrected some "altered" information in those books, such as Noah's age (by a 50 year out of thousand), and some of the details in the story of Moses meeting with God, like the rock shattering vs hiding behind the rock etc etc.
That's why I recommended him Robert Green Ingersoll books. Actually if he really read Quran and the other "testaments" he'd already know all these. I don't think he read much of any of these. Feel really sorry for him. I wish at least he dropped the useless arrogance, since he keeps coming back.
 
Just out of interest here are the most established translations of Surah 56:75

https://myislam.org/surah-waqiah/ay...ovision your denial!&text=(Fala!,, `I swear.”'

SURAH WAQIAH AYAT 75 (56:75 QURAN) WITH TAFSIR
west⠀Prev Ayat
Next Ayat⠀east
Surah Waqi’ah >> Currently viewing Surah Waqi’ah Ayat 75 (56:75)
SURAH WAQI’AH AYAT 75 IN ARABIC TEXT
فَلَآ أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَٰقِعِ ٱلنُّجُومِ
Falaa uqsimu bimaawaa qi’innujoom

ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Here you can read various translations of verse 75

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Then I swear by the setting of the stars,
YUSUF ALI Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
ABUL ALA MAUDUDI No! I swear by the positions of the stars
MUHSIN KHAN So I swear by Mawaqi (setting or the mansions, etc.) of the stars (they traverse).
PICKTHALL Nay, I swear by the places of the stars
DR. GHALI Then no! I swear by the sites of the stars
ABDEL HALEEM I swear by the positions of the stars-
No "White Holes", black holes or any other holes there.


I don't have the links handy right now since I stopped debating muslims for the last few years (I was being pursued and threatened) but the best sources to quote from are the earliest tafsirs (interpretations) of the Quran. Ibn Abdallah and ibn Mes'ud are Mohammad's companions and these early commentators depend on them. Basically these are the people who conveyed (according to muslim consensus) Quran. Who can argue against their commentaries ?
 
No "White Holes", black holes or any other holes there.

Nope. Neither of the passages he cites has the slightest to do with modern stellar life cycle theories. Of course the rejoinder is always that we're thinking too literally and that we have to imagine the layers upon layers of symbolism and prophecy that "must" have been employed.

Among most religious people there is a persistent maxim that you can't properly interpret a religious text unless you actually believe in its divine authenticity. As if reading words and deciding what they could mean somehow must involve a leap of faith! I would argue that interpretation unfettered by indoctrinated preconception is more valuable, or at least more pure. But it remains a firmly foisted premise that any interpretation that doesn't begin first with faith must be dismissed as "prejudiced." How ironic!

What we have in these two passages are two offhand references to stars. Not even the main point. And not much to say about them in either case. They're in the sky; they rise and set. The author harnesses these easily observed facts to make his real point. But no: our OP insists that even offhand remarks have a second, magical meaning -- even though it makes no sense in context. God is capriciously miraculous, but to no apparent end. Even though the passages are addressed to the author's contemporaries, God is somehow also speaking to us in our time -- but cryptically telling us stuff we already know.

We're supposed to be amazed that the details of the stellar life cycle are found in the Qur'an. But the details are entirely missing. They have to be tacked on. If we can't see how the stars going down is an "obvious" reference to black holes, then we're somehow closed-minded. If we can't see how the stars having been positioned in the firmament isn't an "obvious" reference to stellar accretion and birth, then we're unenlightened. Strange how enlightenment doesn't come until after science has spoiled the punchline.

It's all ego. There's a neurochemical payoff from the belief that one has discovered a hidden truth, even if one has to contrive that "true" meaning out of thin air.
 
We're supposed to be amazed that the details of the stellar life cycle are found in the Qur'an. But the details are entirely missing.
There is a fun approach:
Heydarian Saeed, can you tell us more about how the Qur’an explains the ageing of stars? I am thinking of neutron stars, white dwarfs, red giants, main sequence stars, and so on. And black holes, of course. Surely the Qur’an does tell us that not all stars end up as black holes.

Does the Qur’an mention brown dwarfs and red dwarfs? You know, the most numerous stars in the universe?
 
The efforts of you infidels to deny the truth of the existence of God, the Qur'an and the prophets are futile.


Infidels? I don't deny the existence of God, His word, and son Jesus Christ, but your prophet Muhammed had forgotten his religion and needed the angel Gabril to slice him open,wash him out with Zim Zam water and insert the Quran back into his body and closed up the surgical area.
The Quran is goofy.
 
I have no advice for you.


Advise me on what exactly.... how to do the job of blowing in a little married girl's فرج like the lasciviously turpitudinous demon called Allah (a.k.a. YHWH) did?? I know that doing this licentious act does not make girls pregnant but evidently the 1400 years ago desert brigand charlatan who fabricated the Islamic cultic branch of the sub-cult of Zoroastrianism called Judaism, had no idea.


Stop denying the truth.


I am not denying the truth... I know that the Quran is a fetid mephitic pile of claptrap.... you are the one denying facts.



Wait for what?

thum_5128262cde11bbe88b.jpg
 
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Heydarian, I have a proof that Allah doesn't exists. Do you wanna hear it ?

I won't write it until you answer yes, since you ignore most of the arguments here that proved you wrong. Please don't waste our time with your dishonesty.
 
Advise me on what exactly.... how to do the job of blowing in a little married girl's فرج like the lasciviously turpitudinous demon called Allah (a.k.a. YHWH) did?? I know that doing this licentious act does not make girls pregnant but evidently the 1400 years ago desert brigand charlatan who fabricated the Islamic cultic branch of the sub-cult of Zoroastrianism called Judaism, had no idea.





I am not denying the truth... I know that the Quran is a fetid mephitic pile of claptrap.... you are the one denying facts.




Wait for what?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_5128262cde11bbe88b.jpg[/qimg]​


Yeah, man, bring it on!

Your particular ...style of posting, has been off-putting to (some) others in other parts of the forum, Leumas. Rightly or wrongly, let's not go into that here, and take our attention away from our friend Heydarian's nonsense. But, what I'm saying is, if ever this sort of high-octane stuff, coupled with a meme or two, and tinged with sarcasm and ridicule, were apposite, then this is where it's at. When someone is completely impervious to reason, has a hide that a rhinoceros would pray to the gods for but never ever get, has not a smidgen of shame or intellectual honesty --- or else, just perhaps, is sitting there yanking our chains and giggling away to himself at getting us to fall for his shtick --- well then, what you got is exactly what the doctor ordered! Bring it on, and more!
 
Hello
Please tell me the reason why my logic is rejected. To check and reply.
Thank you


I already just pointed out to you that a person has to be illogical & deluded on a massive scale to repeatedly claim as you have that Noah was 900 years old (on your claim he would have been 600 years old when he single-handedly built a ship the size of the Titanic!) ...

... you have to be massively illogical (and, religiously, deluded to the N-th degree) to actually believe something as obviously crazy as that ...

... and yet that is the sort of thing you keep presenting here as a certainty, certainly happened, all literally true … that is illogical and deluded to the point of diagnosable dangerous madness (or, it would be if it were not a religious claim!).
 
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I already just pointed out to you that a person has to be illogical & deluded on a massive scale to repeatedly claim as you have that Noah was 900 years old (on your claim he would have been 600 years old when he single-handedly built a ship the size of the Titanic!) ...

... you have to be massively illogical (and, religiously, deluded to the N-th degree) to actually believe something as obviously crazy as that ...

... and yet that is the sort of thing you keep presenting here as a certainty, certainly happened, all literally true … that is illogical and deluded to the point of diagnosable dangerous madness (or, it would be if it were not a religious claim!).

It is believed that the bible was miss translated by an early scribe that did not understand the numbering system of the ancient Hebrew or Aramaic texts.

Therefore the scribe produced a translation with huge numerical mistakes in the ages of the bible characters. The bible translation says the age of Noah was 950 and so does the Quran. Which is clear proof the Quran was copied from the bible.
 
Wow, that's quite a stretch. "...the position of the stars," somehow gives you "white space holes?" There's nothing in that verse (or anywhere in the Surah) about the birthplace of anything, or of any holes. That's a completely imaginary interpretation.



"By the star, when it goes down," gives you black holes? No, that's another stretch, even if we accept that English translations sometimes render this passage as the stars "fading away." If you absolutely need to correlate this passage to an astronomical phenomenon, there are far better ones in astronomy to consider. Most stars simply burn out; they do not form black holes or get swept into one. That behavior embodies "fading away" far better than a comparatively rare black hole.

But my Arabic-English dictionary translates هَوَى as "[he] goes down." So I think the version alludes better to the setting of the stars in the normal nocturnal cycle. That fits much better the experience of a desert author who would spend a lot of time looking at the night sky and watching the stars set, or watching them fade as the sun rises.

My interpretation makes much more sense in context than would some veiled reference to some phenomenon that neither the author nor the readers could identify with. Yes, the Qur'an employs symbolic imagery. Here, the author is trying to extol the virtues of the Prophet as a reliable witness. To do that, the author contrasts the Prophet with a phenomenon the listeners would understand: the ephemeral nature of stars in the night sky. He says that the Prophet is not something that fades away, errs, or goes astray, like stars do at night (or in the morning). Instead the Prophet gives unwhimsical knowledge revealed to him by a mighty angel, that can be trusted.

See, the key to employing symbolic imagery is to use an image the reader actually knows. Instead, you're trying to tell us the author here is indicating an obscure astronomical phenomenon that won't be discovered until many centuries later and behaves like nothing anyone at that time or place would understand at all as something that can happen to a star.

That would be the stupidest attempt at imagery I can imagine. It's like saying, "My love for you is as constant as a gruntbuggly." The reader has no idea what a gruntguggly is, whether one will ever be discovered, or any notion of its constancy or lack thereof. The analogy completely fails if we must consider the image to be something that only becomes evident much later and departs radically from prevailing knowledge and belief.

No, you suck as a "Koranic scholar" too.



No. As especially evidenced by this latest comedy, your efforts to shoehorn modern scientific concepts into the Qur'an are obviously self-serving. You don't know science, so let's stop pretending you do. And your efforts at "Koranic scholarship" seem to amount to little more than stretching the text far beyond the breaking point in order to tack on some very wishful interpretations. Then you complain vaguely that everyone else's translations are bad or outdated and that your critics are ignorant.

You aren't fooling anyone.

Hello
Our explanations are very clear to answer your questions and doubts. No further explanation is needed.
We hope you understand this clear article well.
Accepting the truth is not mandatory. But you cannot deny the truth in any way. Please understand. Your efforts are in vain.
 
Hello
Our explanations are very clear to answer your questions and doubts. No further explanation is needed.
We hope you understand this clear article well.
Accepting the truth is not mandatory. But you cannot deny the truth in any way. Please understand. Your efforts are in vain.


You still aren't fooling anyone. Apart, perhaps, from yourself.
 
Just out of interest here are the most established translations of Surah 56:75

https://myislam.org/surah-waqiah/ay...ovision your denial!&text=(Fala!,, `I swear.”'

SURAH WAQIAH AYAT 75 (56:75 QURAN) WITH TAFSIR
west⠀Prev Ayat
Next Ayat⠀east
Surah Waqi’ah >> Currently viewing Surah Waqi’ah Ayat 75 (56:75)
SURAH WAQI’AH AYAT 75 IN ARABIC TEXT
فَلَآ أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَٰقِعِ ٱلنُّجُومِ
Falaa uqsimu bimaawaa qi’innujoom

ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Here you can read various translations of verse 75

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Then I swear by the setting of the stars,
YUSUF ALI Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
ABUL ALA MAUDUDI No! I swear by the positions of the stars
MUHSIN KHAN So I swear by Mawaqi (setting or the mansions, etc.) of the stars (they traverse).
PICKTHALL Nay, I swear by the places of the stars
DR. GHALI Then no! I swear by the sites of the stars
ABDEL HALEEM I swear by the positions of the stars-
No "White Holes", black holes or any other holes there.

Hello
These translations and interpretations are old. We have read all of these. Of course, it is completely true about the strong and main verses of the Qur'an. But they have not translated the translation of the similar verses of the Qur'an. And therefore it should be translated up to date. Our translation and commentary for the similar verses of the Qur'an is up-to-date. And this is the truth of the translation of these verses.
I have told you this several times. But you are repeating your old words to us again. Please rest.
Listen to the up-to-date translation of similar verses of the Qur'an from us. please
 
Then why do you keep denying the facts, all of which contradict your ridiculous beliefs?



The efforts of you religious zealots to deny almost all aspects of reality are futile.
Hello
Thank you for not giving additional explanations and not making marginalization.
But ...
Our philosophy is the authenticity of existence. Therefore, our logic is completely consistent with reality in the universe. We fully accept the fact. God has reality and truth. But according to logic and philosophy, it is not reality. Because reality cannot create itself. And it needs a builder. Second, reality is never fixed. But it is variable. Change is the weakness and defect of reality. Therefore, God cannot be of the nature of reality due to the two reasons mentioned above. But it is true. God exists. It is present everywhere. It is existence. It does not exist outside the universe. But it is not of the universe. Because it is perfect. And there is no defect. These are the simplest philosophical reasons for the existence of God. God has reality and truth, but he is not of the reality of the universe. This is easy to understand.
Please get to know a little more about philosophical concepts.
Philosophical concepts are all abstract. And it is understandable with logic.
Thank you
 

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