“Woke”

[Ziggurat]

Why don't more women become welders?

Mostly because they don't want to do that kind of work.

 

[d4m10n]

How can we tell ordinary or acceptable statistical gaps from gaps which implicate (in)justice?

 

[wareyin]

I never said otherwise.

I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that there was a discrepancy when you posted about different people giving different "versions", it's everyone who read your words that was at fault. As usual.

I'm not the one asking anyone to ignore either version. I am saying that upon consideration of both versions, one version is obviously more relevant than the other to the legal case where the quotes were made. You haven't actually suggested any reason to think otherwise. That quote was not previously mentioned by anyone here. So let's dispense with any pretense that I'm the one trying to get people to ignore what was actually said.

As this thread isn't limited to that case, and as both definitions were made in court, let's just stick with the fact that both definitions are relevant to this thread and to the court case as well. I don't need to suggest a reason to not believe your handwaving, as you haven't given a compelling reason why the broad definition isn't a valid discussion point here.

 

[wareyin]

Mostly because they don't want to do that kind of work.

And let's just ignore how very often the male welders create an environment that is hostile towards women, and how often people in authority "gently steer" women away from that career path when we assess whether or not women would want to do that kind of work, shall we?

 

[wareyin]

How can we tell ordinary or acceptable statistical gaps from gaps which implicate (in)justice?

How do you define ordinary?


How do you define acceptable?


When did you change your name to Bob?

 

[d4m10n]

I've already given an example of an ordinary and acceptable gender gap at #776.

 

[BobTheCoward]

How can we tell ordinary or acceptable statistical gaps from gaps which implicate (in)justice?

For example, in the U.S. we've a huge and significant gender gap in workplace fatalities. I'd be hesitant to claim that this persistent and systemic gap is the result of injustice.

Why wouldn't that one be an injustice?

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that there was a discrepancy when you posted about different people giving different "versions", it's everyone who read your words that was at fault. As usual.

Everyone? You aren't "everyone".

 

[d4m10n]

Why wouldn't that one be an injustice?

Why would it? I'm skeptical of the assumption that all gaps (even really lopsided and persistent ones like this) are supposedly indicative of social injustice.

 

[Ziggurat]

More to the point, why are there fewer women in all STEM fields? It's not because they don't want to, it's that the system has for decades been stacked against them.

You have no evidence for that. And there's considerable evidence that this isn't the case.

It's not that long ago that women weren't even allowed to study STEM at university.

Where? Maybe in some parts of the world, but women have been studying STEM at university for a long time now in many parts of the world. And the participation rate of women in STEM fields is NOT correlated with sexual equality, as one should expect if discrimination was actually driving the difference.

Nor is STEM the only way the whole "gender pay gap" thing comes down to choice. Men overwhelmingly dominate workplace deaths. Nobody complains about that, nobody's asking women to take on riskier jobs to close that gap. Why is that? And why do men take those risky jobs at all? Because they pay more. Men are much more likely than women to risk death in order to make more money. And that contributes to the wage gap. But that's not an injustice. That's just difference preferences, and the freedom to pursue those preferences.

 

[wareyin]

Everyone? You aren't "everyone".

Ah, yes, the vast silent majority who agrees with you.

 

[wareyin]

I've already given an example of an ordinary and acceptable gender gap at #776.

How did you determine that it was acceptable?

How did you determine that it was ordinary?

 

[d4m10n]

How did you determine that it was acceptable?

Woke people aren't campaigning about fixing it.

Remember the question here is what counts as "systemic injustice" for the sake of wokeness.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ah, yes, the vast silent majority who agrees with you.

The vast silent majority probably haven't even looked at that post.

 

[TragicMonkey]

And let's just ignore how very often the male welders create an environment that is hostile towards women, and how often people in authority "gently steer" women away from that career path when we assess whether or not women would want to do that kind of work, shall we?

For the purposes of argument all playing fields are always assumed to be completely level.

 

[wareyin]

The vast silent majority probably haven't even looked at that post.

Yeah, people unable to back up their claims do tend to get overlooked. Bummer, that.

 

[wareyin]

Woke people aren't campaigning about fixing it.

Remember the question here is what counts as "systemic injustice" for the sake of wokeness.

No, the question was whether your assumption that it was ordinary and acceptable was grounded in anything.

As a reminder, "woke" as defined by the majority use is the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them. If you don't think that attempts are made to lower workplace deaths, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yeah, people unable to back up their claims do tend to get overlooked. Bummer, that.

You claimed everyone agreed with you about my post. You haven't backed that up. Bummer, that.

 

[Foster Zygote]

More to the point, why are there fewer women in all STEM fields? It's not because they don't want to, it's that the system has for decades been stacked against them. It's not that long ago that women weren't even allowed to study STEM at university.

That's what is meant by systemic injustice. It's not just that women weren't applying to study engineering, it's that it was against the rules for them to do so.

Now they can, because the rules have been changed, but there are still fewer of them in the field than there are men. This demonstrates that systemic injustices can be addressed, but doing so is a slow and difficult process.

My wife is an engineer who's been dealing with that for almost 30 years. She does have quite a few male colleagues whose respect she's earned because she's very good at her job, and is one of only three people in the whole global company with the level of expertise to do what she does, which requires extensive knowledge of gas turbines, the entire product lifecycle management system software used in their production, and international import/export controls. But she frequently has to deal with pushback and obstinacy from men who have no trouble listening to another man tell them the same things she tells them. She once had to tell a guy that he could not legally do what he wanted to do, and that if he did, Federal agents would literally show up at his desk and march him out of the office in handcuffs, and he still insisted on arguing with her until a male coworker told him the same thing, at which point he immediately accepted what he was told.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Why would it? I'm skeptical of the assumption that all gaps (even really lopsided and persistent ones like this) are supposedly indicative of social injustice.

Why are those jobs so dangerous? It could be an injustice that people have to work under those conditions and it is gender divide.

I don't accept it is given that those jobs need to be that deadly